What if you consider arguments on Christianity and you are left with major doubt?

rako

New member
Live with doubt. That is honest and healthy.
Chair,

I think you are right. So how do we do this?

Let's say I go to Church regularly and they always talk about Jesus' miracles of some kind (like the Incarnation around Christmas), and meanwhile I am thinking "This probably did not actually happen".

Maybe in rabbinical Judaism you have it easier, and it's not so important to their psyche whether Moses actually saw God and was given express divine instructions about things like invading other tribes and getting circumcised.

But maybe I would have the same hang up and get stuck asking why I was following rituals like circumcision and avoiding certain foods if God didn't actually say to do so.
 

PureX

Well-known member
PureX,
Yes, my fear of dying is one thing that makes the resurrection story matter to me. Another is that Church is important to me socially. Jesus' promises are also important, so I want them to be real, but just because I want it doesn't make it so.
Keep in mind that there are many things we humans don't know, and probably will never know. If, and in what state we might exist after our bodies die, is one of those things. I think it's better to be humble and honest with ourselves about our intellectual limitations, than it is to blindly presume the truth of some fantastic promise just because we want to. Do you really think God wants us lusting after religious fantasies in our hearts and minds? Or accepting the limitations imposed upon us by creation, and trusting that whatever happens, it will be as God intended?
Some propose, like you said, that the story of Jesus was meant metaphorically to make us better people. But I think that it was meant to be taken by the audience literally, that is, as the real story of a real person with real miracles. They never say "this is just a metaphor". And many people in those times did believe in such kinds of miracles, like healings, a Messiah, angels, etc.
Few people in those times would have understood the concept of metaphor. They lived in a kind of "metaphorical" reality because they had so little understanding of how and why things happened. Everything was "magical" to them, and therefor perceived somewhat metaphorically.
Besides, 2 Peter says things like "We have not given carefully devised fables"(paraphrased) and Paul says "If Christ isn't risen, our hope is in vain".
The religion that sprung up in the wake of Jesus is just a religion that sprung up in the wake of Jesus. Those voices you refer to are not the voices of Jesus, nor are they the voice of God. It would be a grave error to treat them as if they were, because that would be tantamount to idolatry. They are the voices of men, biased by their own perceptions, experiences, and beliefs. Their beliefs do not have to be yours. Their conception of God does not have to be yours. Look for the truth in your own heart, and in the reality of your own life. That will be the "living God". Not some biblical depiction, contrived by others.
 

rako

New member
"What if you consider arguments on Christianity and you are left with major doubt?"

Then, you are not a Christian, you are a philosopher who examines Christian doctrine, which is what nonbelievers do.

Was St. Thomas Christian before he saw Christ resurrected? He loved Christ but didn't think the last part physically happened.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Was St. Thomas Christian before he saw Christ resurrected? He loved Christ but didn't think the last part physically happened.

No. He was a Catholic priest. He was the foremost classical proponent of natural theology and the father of Thomism. Thomas is considered the Catholic Church's greatest theologian and philosopher.

If you consider arguments on Christianity and you are left with major doubt, then you are a philosopher who examines Christian doctrine, not a true Christian who seeks with the heart and has faith, not facts.

See what I mean?
 

rako

New member
There comes a point, I think, when we have to ask ourselves if what we want is a religion, or a personal relationship with God. Because religion is secondary to a personal concept of and relationship with God. Religions are just collections of traditions, ideals, goals, and practices that people have used to help them live according to their conceptual and experiential relationship with God as they understand God. Without that personal concept of and experience with God as you understand God, religion is just empty spiritual exercise.

Perhaps you need to examine what God is, and means to you, personally. How you see God manifesting in your everyday life. And how your conception of God might be altered to become more positively effecting, and more realistic to you. Trying to get to God through religion is putting the cart before the horse, I think.
I am looking for a REP button for you.

I believe that the soul exists and that right exists as do morality, and life, and some free will and consciousness and love and kindness, and since there is knowledge, I think there is a main "knower" whose image we reflect.

There are inspiring figures in history like Gandhi and John the Baptist, and in my personal life like some relatives.
 

rako

New member
No. He was a Catholic priest. He was the foremost classical proponent of natural theology and the father of Thomism. Thomas is considered the Catholic Church's greatest theologian and philosopher.

If you consider arguments on Christianity and you are left with major doubt, then you are a philosopher who examines Christian doctrine, not a true Christian who seeks with the heart and has faith, not facts.

See what I mean?
I meant the apostle Thomas.
 

rako

New member
Keep in mind that there are many things we humans don't know, and probably will never know. If, and in what state we might exist after our bodies die, is one of those things. I think it's better to be humble and honest with ourselves about our intellectual limitations, than it is to blindly presume the truth of some fantastic promise just because we want to. Do you really think God wants us lusting after religious fantasies in our hearts and minds? Or accepting the limitations imposed upon us by creation, and trusting that whatever happens, it will be as God intended?
Few people in those times would have understood the concept of metaphor. They lived in a kind of "metaphorical" reality because they had so little understanding of how and why things happened. Everything was "magical" to them, and therefor perceived somewhat metaphorically.
The religion that sprung up in the wake of Jesus is just a religion that sprung up in the wake of Jesus. Those voices you refer to are not the voices of Jesus, nor are they the voice of God. It would be a grave error to treat them as if they were, because that would be tantamount to idolatry. They are the voices of men, biased by their own perceptions, experiences, and beliefs. Their beliefs do not have to be yours. Their conception of God does not have to be yours. Look for the truth in your own heart, and in the reality of your own life. That will be the "living God". Not some biblical depiction, contrived by others.
Sure, Paul and 2 Peter are not Jesus, but I think that their claims on whether Jesus and the gospel writers were using metaphor only were correct. For example, when the four evangelists all claim that Jesus' body vanished from he tomb, I don't think that they meant it to be taken metaphorically, as if his body metaphorically vanished.

Ancient Judaeans believed that there were real entities of angels and demons, and they had spells to control or drive the latter out. In one story, Jesus sends a demon out of a person and into pigs, whereupon the pigs die. I think that Jesus, like the ancient healers and shamans, probably actually used to do this kind of thing. And it is hard to read the pigs' death as being only metaphorical.

Likewise, when Jesus helps someone walk by healing them, was it only a meaphorical healing? It's hard to read it like that.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I meant the apostle Thomas.

Then you should have said that. the apostle Thomas lacked faith; he gad t have proof. Same point, he lacked faith, he was not a true believer by faith. He came to faith after he knew Christ.

Jesus said, those who did not see were and believed had stronger faith. Of course, I am paraphrasing in my own words.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Sure, Paul and 2 Peter are not Jesus, but I think that their claims on whether Jesus and the gospel writers were using metaphor only were correct. For example, when the four evangelists all claim that Jesus' body vanished from he tomb, I don't think that they meant it to be taken metaphorically, as if his body metaphorically vanished.
But the truth is clear enough: that none of us know what happened, then, because we were not there. Why not just accept this as being God's will for us (that we can't know)? That way we don't have to run the risk of falsely idolizing the words and beliefs of others. And we don't have to be discouraged from hoping, either. And in the meantime, we can learn from the story as a metaphor for the transcendence of divine love, over our fear of death, in our own lives.
Ancient Judaeans believed that there were real entities of angels and demons, and they had spells to control or drive the latter out. In one story, Jesus sends a demon out of a person and into pigs, whereupon the pigs die. I think that Jesus, like the ancient healers and shamans, probably actually used to do this kind of thing. And it is hard to read the pigs' death as being only metaphorical.
Again, it's impossible to know, because the people of the time had no non-magical references with which to comprehend a lot of the phenomena happening around them. Why not just leave it at that?
Likewise, when Jesus helps someone walk by healing them, was it only a meaphorical healing? It's hard to read it like that.
I think it's easy to read it like that. Especially when we understand the essential message and promise of Christ: that God's love and forgiveness acting in us and through us, to others, can heal us and save us from ourselves. The message may be offered through metaphorical stories of miraculous events, but it's as real as it gets for those who are willing to take the message and promise to heart, and live by it. They WILL be healed and saved from themselves. And that's no metaphor.

I can't know what happened 2000 years ago because I wasn't there, but I can experience the truth of this message and promise for myself, here and now, even without the supernatural feats. So for me, the long past feats don't really matter. The truth that matters to me is the reality of that healing in my own life.
 

rako

New member
Sure, Paul and 2 Peter are not Jesus, but I think that their claims on whether Jesus and the gospel writers were using metaphor only were correct. For example, when the four evangelists all claim that Jesus' body vanished from he tomb, I don't think that they meant it to be taken metaphorically, as if his body metaphorically vanished.
But the truth is clear enough: that none of us know what happened, then, because we were not there. Why not just accept this as being God's will for us (that we can't know)? That way we don't have to run the risk of falsely idolizing the words and beliefs of others. And we don't have to be discouraged from hoping, either. And in the meantime, we can learn from the story as a metaphor for the transcendence of divine love, over our fear of death, in our own lives.
Again, it's impossible to know, because the people of the time had no non-magical references with which to comprehend a lot of the phenomena happening around them. Why not just leave it at that?
It's one thing to say that we don't know that something paranormal physically happened 2000 years ago because we weren't there.
But it's different to say that we don't have much opinion whether literature (four books of gospels) presents something as real or not. Unlike the physical events that occurred 2000 years ago, we do have the literature in front of us to check. It's something I do have a strong belief about.

The ancient Jews believed in a physical resurrection. It's only natural that the audience's interpretation would be that this referred to a physical experience of Jesus in the "good news."

Nowhere does it say that the resurrection of Jesus was only a metaphor or only spiritual, not physical. But it does present the events as physical, like the angel rolling away the stone or the curtain of the temple being torn. Those kings of things do not happen "just metaphorically."

when Jesus helps someone walk by healing them, was it only a metaphorical healing? It's hard to read it like that.
I think it's easy to read it like that. Especially when we understand the essential message and promise of Christ: that God's love... can heal us
Whether or not you understand the Christian message of God's love healing us, as a matter of interpreting literature, it is very hard and unrealistic to read all the healing stories that way.

Let me give you an example from Mark 2:

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
* Jesus said that He, the Son of Man, has a special power to forgive sins. Is that only metaphorical, or did Jesus literally have the power to forgive sins?
Of course it's literal, because "metaphorical" forgiveness doesn't make sense. If I don't literally forgive you, I am still actually holding your sins against you.

* Are "blasphemies" metaphorical? If you say something false about religion, your blasphemy is meeting the literal definition of blasphemy.

* Jesus is saying that He has a unique power to heal people just like the literal power he claims to forgive sins

*Is the sick person a metaphor? Is the scribe a metaphor? Is the house in the story a metaphor? Is the sick person's bed a metaphor? These are all presented as physical things. The sick person is presented as someone who physically picks up the bed.

*In the ancient times, Judea did have "healers" who went around with spells and herbs to heal people. The Torah even gives rituals for this. This story in that context would be presented as a _literal_ healing. The person physically got better and was physically able to walk.

*If the healing was just about the person being healed _emotionally_ like a metaphorical healing, the crowd wouldn't have been amazed like they would for a physical healing.

So Jesus is presented as, and probably was, a person who attempted literal healings like the other healers of his age and like Charismatic Christians and some mainstream Christian saints in more modern times.

And if the healings were physical, it's only natural that the other miracles like incarnation were presented as physical too.

I can't know what happened 2000 years ago because I wasn't there, but I can experience the truth of this message and promise for myself, here and now, even without the supernatural feats. So for me, the long past feats don't really matter. The truth that matters to me is the reality of that healing in my own life.

Do you think that Jesus in particular, not just God in general, has a unique ability as God's Son to heal you? Because that is what He is saying in this passage. What do you do at Christmas and Easter if you realize that your Church and your Bible present the incarnation and resurrection as physical events, and the unique Godhood of Jesus as reality and pray to Him as to God, if in fact you tend to think rationally that these claims likely do not match reality, ie you "doubt"?

Christianity emphasizes Jesus so much as a saving, resurrecting co-sufferer, and now you have lost that "crutch"? It feels tough for people like me who put so much focus on Jesus and the Church in their lives and minds.
 

PureX

Well-known member
It's one thing to say that we don't know that something paranormal physically happened 2000 years ago because we weren't there.
But it's different to say that we don't have much opinion whether literature (four books of gospels) presents something as real or not. Unlike the physical events that occurred 2000 years ago, we do have the literature in front of us to check. It's something I do have a strong belief about.
What you have in front of you is a story. And like most stories, it presents itself as having "happened", whether it actually happened or not. … Is it fiction? Intended to convey a religious ideology? Is it an exaggerated glorification of events that became a religious legend through the telling and retelling? Is it a deliberate misrepresentation of events intended to cohere and solidify a particular religious cult? Is it an accurate documentation of events by eye-witnesses? Or is it some combination of all these?

What you have is a story. How you view the story is up to you, but some of those choices are less likely than others. All I'm suggesting is that we be honest with ourselves and each other about it, and stop treating the text as if it came directly from the mouth of God. Because it did not.
The ancient Jews believed in a physical resurrection. It's only natural that the audience's interpretation would be that this referred to a physical experience of Jesus in the "good news."
Not just the Jews. Most people of that time believed in all sorts of "supernatural" feats, like the dead coming back to life, because they had very little understanding of natural processes and limitations. That doesn't make the claims in the Bible story true. In fact, it makes them far more likely to be false, as were all the other claims of resurrection at the time. People just didn't know any better, at the time.
Nowhere does it say that the resurrection of Jesus was only a metaphor or only spiritual, not physical. But it does present the events as physical, like the angel rolling away the stone or the curtain of the temple being torn. Those kings of things do not happen "just metaphorically."
Why would a metaphorical work of fiction proclaim itself to be a metaphorical work of fiction? That would undercut it's own intent.

The purpose of writing metaphorical fiction is to convey a greater truth by manipulating the facts being presented as actuality. And it's a method that works very well. Writers have been using it for eons, and are still using it, today. And I can't think of a single time when the writer explained up front that this is what they are doing. So why would you expect them to do so in this instance?

I'm not saying that the story of Jesus' life and death and resurrection is complete metaphorical fiction. And I don't believe it is. But neither do I believe it to be an accurate representation of historical events. Because that would be extremely unlikely given what we know about the history of the story, (where the copies of the texts came from, and when they were written) and of the limits of human intellect and physical reality.
Whether or not you understand the Christian message of God's love healing us, as a matter of interpreting literature, it is very hard and unrealistic to read all the healing stories that way.
I honestly do not see why you find it so difficult to simply take the stories for what they are: stories.
Let me give you an example from Mark 2:

* Jesus said that He, the Son of Man, has a special power to forgive sins. Is that only metaphorical, or did Jesus literally have the power to forgive sins?
We all have the "power" to forgive sins. No metaphorical understanding is necessary, here. This was a new idea to the people he was talking to. But it's not a new idea to us.

But this doesn't have any bearing on the story being metaphorical. All stories present characters that say things that are not metaphorical. How could it be otherwise? The "Little Engine That Could" is a metaphorical children's story, yet it, too, has characters that say things that are literally true. Yet it remains a work of metaphorical fiction.
* Are "blasphemies" metaphorical? If you say something false about religion, your blasphemy is meeting the literal definition of blasphemy.
False statements about religion according to whom? Blasphemy is a subjective truth/value judgment. It's not based on metaphor, it's based on differing opinion.
* Jesus is saying that He has a unique power to heal people just like the literal power he claims to forgive sins
"Jesus" is a character in a story. He says whatever the author of the story writes him to say.

And we all have the power to forgive. There's nothing particularly unique about it. The Jews at the time, however, thought they had to go to God and make animal sacrifices to be forgiven. Jesus was trying to teach them that human beings are manifestations of God ("children" of God, made in God's image) and so have the power to forgive themselves and each other. And he was acting as an example of this idea, to them. This was a very new and radical idea at that time. Remember that Jesus was an ancient Jew talking to other ancient Jews. He was NOT TALKING TO US. We need to understand what he says in that context.
*Is the sick person a metaphor? Is the scribe a metaphor? Is the house in the story a metaphor? Is the sick person's bed a metaphor? These are all presented as physical things.
They are always represented as physical things, whether it's metaphorical fiction or not. I, personally, don't see much of a point to the telling and retelling of this story if it's not at least somewhat metaphorical. Because if it's not, what do I care about some 2000 year old man-god? What do I care what he taught his fellow Jews two centuries ago? I'm not even Jewish.

It's as metaphor that I find value and meaning in his story relative to my life, today. It's by seeing the "sick man" as myself, or as people I care about that the story becomes relevant to me. To us. I think we are meant to read the story as if all the characters represent some part of ourselves. We are Pilot, condemning Christ out of convenience. We are the blind man, healed through faith. We are Judas, turning our back on Christ for the sake of money. We are the indifferent Roman soldiers, playing games at the foot of the cross of Christ. And so on. Do you really not see the truth about ourselves being revealed, metaphorically, through these characters and events?

We crucify Christ in our hearts every single day, in so many ways, just as the priests and Pilot and those soldiers did in the story. And we doubt and deny Christ every day in our hearts, because of our fear and greed, just like Judas and the apostles did in the story. On and on it goes. Those characters are us, in one way or another. And they are intended to show us the truth about ourselves, and the truth about how with God's love and forgiveness acting within us, we can be healed and saved from ourselves. And we can become a healer to others, as Jesus did.

It's all about the metaphor. Otherwise, it doesn't really mean anything. Its just another religious legend.
*In the ancient times, Judea did have "healers" who went around with spells and herbs to heal people. The Torah even gives rituals for this. This story in that context would be presented as a _literal_ healing. The person physically got better and was physically able to walk.
The world is full of healers. Always has been. There is nothing significant about this. Why would another story about a healer matter, if that's all it was?
*If the healing was just about the person being healed _emotionally_ like a metaphorical healing, the crowd wouldn't have been amazed like they would for a physical healing.
That "crowd" will be just as amazed as the author of the story writes them to be. You keep forgetting that you're reading a story. The crowd's "amazement" is a literary device, whether it actually happened or not. And we do not know if any of these events actually happened or not. What we do know, is that it IS a literary device, now.
So Jesus is presented as, and probably was, a person who attempted literal healings like the other healers of his age and like Charismatic Christians and some mainstream Christian saints in more modern times.
To us, Jesus is a character in a religious story. If he actually existed, and what he actually did if he existed, has been lost to history. All we have now are the stories. Since we cannot go back to compare the actual events to the story, all we can do is make use of the story as best we can. And I don't think we are making our best use of the story by pretending that it's not a story. Because that's basically being dishonest. Of course we "suspend our disbelief" when we read such stories to make them more engaging and effecting, but we don't do so to the point of denying that they are a story. And we should not do so to the point of missing the metaphorical significance and relevance to us, today.
Do you think that Jesus in particular, not just God in general, has a unique ability as God's Son to heal you?
I believe that Jesus is a character in a story. So he can't actually do anything for me, as such. But I believe that the ideals that the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection convey to me, metaphorically, have offered me a pathway to spiritual healing, and through the healing of my spirit, to a healing of my relationship to the physical realm, as well.
Christianity emphasizes Jesus so much as a saving, resurrecting co-sufferer, and now you have lost that "crutch"? It feels tough for people like me who put so much focus on Jesus and the Church in their lives and minds.
I am not anti-religion, for others. I understand that a great many people find much positive value in the practice of religion. But I, personally, have little use for it. I find it constraining and controlling, and too often absurdly ego-centric.

I am a taoist Christian, which means I don't generally view "God" or Christ as a 'being'. I view them more as a great existential source/mystery (in the case of "God") and an ideal based on love and compassion (in the case of Christ). So I have no need of miracles or supernatural feats to help me 'believe'. I believe simply because I want to, and because it works. And I am not concerned about the fact that I will die. It is as it should be.
 
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rako

New member
Hello, PureX!

Some people are pretty locked in a view that Jesus' story was meant to be understood as a myth by the audience, like Thomas the Train Engine. I suppose one could make lots of rationalizations to claim that, but such a theory does not appear realistic.

  • Paul is a major member of that 1st century audience, and he did not take to be intended as myth. He said if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain.
  • 2 Peter's author, if it were not written by Peter himself, would also be the kind of person who the gospel spoke to, and he didn't consider it mythical.
  • The account in Mark 2 of Jesus healing someone would, at face value, be taken as a real event, because such healers and [alleged] healings occasionally happened in 1st century Judea. For example, if a person on the street told you today that a Pentecostal minister in town healed someone, you would normally think that they were referring to a real event like a typical Pentecostal healing ritual, even if you didn't consider such Pentecostal practices to be supernatural miracles.

Of course, one could make rationalizations to ignore that - one could imagine that Paul and 2 Peter totally misunderstood the gospel as real, even though they were part of the intended audience.

One could imagine that the discussion about the Pentecostal minister was only about a myth and that he never actually tried to perform healings, even if I never gave you any more information than what I did above. But in reality, people in a modern audience would normally think that the minister tried to heal someone, because Pentecostals do that sort of thing and the person in town never told you that it was a myth.

If one is entrenched in that view, I am not sure it's worth debating, I just don't find it realistic to consider these gospels to be intended to be understood as only myths that did not actually happened. I think that Jews in the 1st century AD were really looking for real Messiahs of prophecy who could do miracles like they read about in the Old Testament and expected him to free them from Rome.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Hello, PureX!

Some people are pretty locked in a view that Jesus' story was meant to be understood as a myth by the audience, like Thomas the Train Engine. I suppose one could make lots of rationalizations to claim that, but such a theory does not appear realistic.

  • Paul is a major member of that 1st century audience, and he did not take to be intended as myth. He said if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain.
  • 2 Peter's author, if it were not written by Peter himself, would also be the kind of person who the gospel spoke to, and he didn't consider it mythical.
  • The account in Mark 2 of Jesus healing someone would, at face value, be taken as a real event, because such healers and [alleged] healings occasionally happened in 1st century Judea. For example, if a person on the street told you today that a Pentecostal minister in town healed someone, you would normally think that they were referring to a real event like a typical Pentecostal healing ritual, even if you didn't consider such Pentecostal practices to be supernatural miracles.

Of course, one could make rationalizations to ignore that - one could imagine that Paul and 2 Peter totally misunderstood the gospel as real, even though they were part of the intended audience.

One could imagine that the discussion about the Pentecostal minister was only about a myth and that he never actually tried to perform healings, even if I never gave you any more information than what I did above. But in reality, people in a modern audience would normally think that the minister tried to heal someone, because Pentecostals do that sort of thing and the person in town never told you that it was a myth.

If one is entrenched in that view, I am not sure it's worth debating, I just don't find it realistic to consider these gospels to be intended to be understood as only myths that did not actually happened. I think that Jews in the 1st century AD were really looking for real Messiahs of prophecy who could do miracles like they read about in the Old Testament and expected him to free them from Rome.
Then why are you having doubts? Why is your common sense telling you that some of these events are not likely to have happened as they are claimed to have happened?

I was offering you some explanations fir this that do not require you to reject all your beliefs. If you don't want them, than so be it.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Do you agree with Anna's response to my post to you, or do you have a response of your own? Let me know so I don't have to respond more than once to the same points. Again, the best evidence you have are the witnesses. It is written: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”
 

rako

New member
The purpose of writing metaphorical fiction is to convey a greater truth by manipulating the facts being presented as actuality. And it's a method that works very well. Writers have been using it for eons, and are still using it, today. And I can't think of a single time when the writer explained up front that this is what they are doing. So why would you expect them to do so in this instance?
Yes, Jesus established up front often that he spoke in parables and shared the meaning of them with his followers.

Luke 8:11
"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.

Mark 4
13And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14"The sower sows the word.…

Matthew 13:3
Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed.

In the case of the Church and the apostles though, we don't have it said that the resurrection, incarnation, etc. were only metaphors with different meanings than physical resurrection. Instead, we read in the New Testament that the early Christians were praised for keeping to the traditions.

In Acts 2 we read that Peter announces to the Jews that we have David's tomb with us today, but that God rose Jesus up.

Here Peter is contrasting Jesus with a real person with a real grave - David. In light of the analogy, Jesus' situation with his physical real grave is different. Instead of having a physical grave, Jesus has been raised up, according to Peter. If this raising was only a metaphor and not physical, Jesus' grave would still be with us, according to Peter.

I'm not saying that the story of Jesus' life and death and resurrection is complete metaphorical fiction. And I don't believe it is. But neither do I believe it to be an accurate representation of historical events. Because that would be extremely unlikely given what we know about the history of the story, (where the copies of the texts came from, and when they were written) and of the limits of human intellect and physical reality.
Did you consider the possibility that the story could be intended to be presented as real and physical but in fact was either made up or its supernatural aspects were delusions/imagined?

They are always represented as physical things, whether it's metaphorical fiction or not. I, personally, don't see much of a point to the telling and retelling of this story if it's not at least somewhat metaphorical. Because if it's not, what do I care about some 2000 year old man-god? What do I care what he taught his fellow Jews two centuries ago? I'm not even Jewish.
If the events are physical and real, and Jesus is the God man, then his instructions for the whole world to obey and trust in him are real too. (see eg. the Great Commission of Matthew 28 and Mark 16).

Jesus says: "And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”
And: "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last", according to Revelation.

If it's real, that's important for you.

You keep forgetting that you're reading a story. The crowd's "amazement" is a literary device, whether it actually happened or not. And we do not know if any of these events actually happened or not. What we do know, is that it IS a literary device, now.
In stories like Thomas the Train Engine we can tell that we are just looking at a tale of metaphors because train do not literally speak. If Thomas the Train Engine did not have such unrealistic aspects, we would probably think it was real. If I told you that John Byrd is someone I know and works as a train conductor, and that his train barely made it yesterday because of snow and a lack of fuel, you would probably believe that I intended for you to believe this was a real train.

In Acts 2, Peter announces: "We are all witnesses" of the gospel's events and of Jesus. They claimed to actually know Jesus of Nazareth the son of Mary.

The story's elements for the audience are not like a train engine talking, in that people in those times really were believing in healings and other such miracles.


I am a taoist Christian, which means I don't generally view "God" or Christ as a 'being'. I view them more as a great existential source/mystery (in the case of "God") and an ideal based on love and compassion (in the case of Christ). So I have no need of miracles or supernatural feats to help me 'believe'. I believe simply because I want to, and because it works. And I am not concerned about the fact that I will die. It is as it should be.

It sounds like for practical purposes you have worked out a good philosophy and way of looking at things. I wish that I was at least that laid back about this kind of thing. However, one way you do this is by rationalizing the gospels as intended as allegories, whereas for me they were presented as real, physical events, as the Churches today present them. This creates some consternation in me as I value the churches and the early Christians, and would like for the stories to be real, since it bothers me that bad things happen in the world, whereas resurrection could be a way to resolve them.
 

rako

New member
Do you agree with Anna's response to my post to you, or do you have a response of your own? Let me know so I don't have to respond more than once to the same points. Again, the best evidence you have are the witnesses. It is written: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Hello, Elohiym!

Please have a look at my discussion of such evidence here:
According to the gospel story, about a dozen people had physical interactions with Jesus after he rose. But normally it would be hard to know what to make of similar claims if we heard them today. Phillip Wiebe in his book on modern appearances noted people in a Canadian Pentecostal church claimed Jesus appeared to them and they filmed it and went on tour showing the tape to people. When Wiebe, a Christian, went to the Pentecostal minister later to inspect the tape closer, the Pentecostal minister said he had lost it. Mainstream Christians are commonly skeptical about the Charismatics' claims like those, even when presented with Charismatics claiming to have seen visions.

Paul mentions an appearance to 500, but he doesn't say what that appearance was. For example, he doesn't say if it were an appearance of Jesus in the sky to hundreds of people, like we find in the Marian apparitions, allegedly to hundreds of Catholics. In the case of the Marian apparitions, some people present don't see Mary, while others do. Mainstream Christians are often skeptical about the Marian apparitions.
 

rako

New member
Consider how elaborate the con would have to be, and for what motivation?
Hello! I think that people really can have mental visions that are not real. Maybe the appearances of Mary to hundreds of Catholics today are like that. Maybe the appearances of Buddha or Asian gurus to people in Asia are like that too.

When Stephen claimed to see Jesus in the sky, the nasty crowd of the rabbis killed him. I love Stephen, but it is not clear to me that Jesus was really there physically visible in the clouds, because it seems to me that the crowd would not have killed Stephen if the crowd saw Jesus. For that matter, I imagine that Jesus would not have just sat there watching in the clouds visible to everyone while the crowd killed Stephen, but what do I know?

To conclude if some witnesses look at something and see it, and other witnesses look and see nothing, then to me it is not certain whether the thing or person was actually there or if it was just a mental vision. I am not saying what happened - I am saying that mentally I am uncertain, but tend to think that it didn't physically actually happen. I want it to be real, but if I think realistically, it looks rather unlikely, and more likely to have been mental visions like some Charismatics and some in other religions probably have today.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
. Look for the truth in your own heart, and in the reality of your own life.
This is terrible advise.

The worst.

:nono:

If the "truth in our own heart" was sufficient enough to save us, then Jesus died for nothing.


PureX said:
That will be the "living God". Not some biblical depiction, contrived by others.

I see, so we should all believe in the gods that we contrive ourselves rather than what the bible says about God, right?
We should all just trust in the Jesus we invent by our own imaginations rather than trust the accounts of the folks who actually knew Him, correct?

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. (Pro 21:2 ESV)
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Hello! I think that people really can have mental visions that are not real.

Yes, people can have hallucinations, but you are claiming that a mass of people shared a collective mental vision and then mistook the vision for reality, then taught their children a hallucination was real, then their children also had these mass hallucinations. As a result of these alleged mass hallucination occurring, which are improbable, a nation adopted extremely burdensome laws. They necessarily created genealogies that are simply fabrications at some point in the lineage. Isn't that what you believe?

...I imagine that Jesus would not have just sat there watching in the clouds visible to everyone while the crowd killed Stephen, but what do I know?

You don't know, but you seem to believe a person named Stephen existed, was stoned, and claimed to see what he saw while being murdered. Why even believe that? It's entirely based on eye-witness testimony of the event.

I am not saying what happened - I am saying that mentally I am uncertain, but tend to think that it didn't physically actually happen.

At what point do you believe the Jews started fabricating the genealogies, and why would their descendants go along with such an outrageous revision of their history?

It would be interesting to see you explain just how they pulled off the Red Sea con. Mass hallucination couldn't even begin to explain that one. You have to claim it was a story made up in retrospect by one generation, and their elders didn't object to the revision of their family trees and history.

What proof do you have that you are who you claim to be? It's all based on witness testimony, even your birth certificate; and it can all be fabricated.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Yes, Jesus established up front often that he spoke in parables and shared the meaning of them with his followers.
Jesus did not write the story of his life that you are reading. And we don't know who did. So we don't know what the authors of these stories heard or did not hear, or what events or utterances they may have added or subtracted. In fact, we know that three of the four gospels are copies of a single common gospel that has never been found, and the author of that gospel is also unknown to us. The texts that we do have range from about 70 years after Jesus death to about 200 years after, so whoever wrote those were very likely not eye-witnesses. They were copying from other lost texts, or they were interpreting lost texts that they've read. Then the texts we do have were interpreted into other languages, and reinterpreted into yet more languages. And each of the interpreters had to develop their own understanding of the texts to put them in a new language. So there is a lot of opportunity for the various author's "spin", here, even if it's unintentional.
In the case of the Church and the apostles though, we don't have it said that the resurrection, incarnation, etc. were only metaphors with different meanings than physical resurrection. Instead, we read in the New Testament that the early Christians were praised for keeping to the traditions.
1. It was in the best interest of the Church to promote such magical thinking, and 2., given the intellectual sophistication of the populace, at that time, it was easy for people to believe in such supernatural feats, and to be deeply impressed by them. It was much more difficult for them to grasp spiritual metaphor, so the religion settled for what it could get. And of course the Christian Church soon became a very powerful political entity that held that power based on the depth of fear and impressiveness of the promises it could manifest (i.e., the blind faith and obedience that it could generate). And it was this powerful political entity that is responsible for nearly every interpretation and reinterpretation of the few original texts that humanity possessed.

Again, there has been a huge opportunity and motive for "spin" in all this religi-political reinterpretation.
Did you consider the possibility that the story could be intended to be presented as real and physical but in fact was either made up or its supernatural aspects were delusions/imagined?
Yes, I believe the story as we now see it is a combination of fact, myth, metaphor, and religious propaganda. There is very little of the real Jesus left in it, I think, at this point. But I do believe there are still a few glimpses of the real Jesus, there, and they can tell us a lot if we can spot them, and take the time to really contemplate them.
If the events are physical and real, and Jesus is the God man, then his instructions for the whole world to obey and trust in him are real too. (see eg. the Great Commission of Matthew 28 and Mark 16).
There are no "god-men". Nor did Jesus ever claim to be a god. He was simply trying to teach us that we are spiritual reflections of our divine creator (children of God) and that as such, we can find God's divine spirit within us, and we can live by that spirit (as Jesus did). And that if we will do this, we will be healed, and saved from a hell of our own making.
In stories like Thomas the Train Engine we can tell that we are just looking at a tale of metaphors because train do not literally speak.
Men do not literally walk on water or rise from the dead, either. It's no more logical for us to believe one than it is for us to believe the other. If the Little Engine That Could called itself God's Engine would you then believe that it could think and talk?
In Acts 2, Peter announces: "We are all witnesses" of the gospel's events and of Jesus. They claimed to actually know Jesus of Nazareth the son of Mary.
Well, these texts were written long after Jesus' death, by an unknown author. So it's not likely that the author was actually a witness to the events of Jesus life. And as we all know, human witnesses are notoriously unreliable, especially when it comes to long remembered and ideologically significant events.
The story's elements for the audience are not like a train engine talking, in that people in those times really were believing in healings and other such miracles.
Nor is the pretense of direct narrative a direct narrative. Ever see the film, "Little Big Man"?
It sounds like for practical purposes you have worked out a good philosophy and way of looking at things. I wish that I was at least that laid back about this kind of thing. However, one way you do this is by rationalizing the gospels as intended as allegories, whereas for me they were presented as real, physical events, as the Churches today present them.
I was raised a Catholic, and went to Catholic schools until 10th grade. Much of what I have learned about these various ways of understanding the Bible stories comes from those years in Catholic school, and from some years in a Lutheran Bible study group. You are mistaken if you think Biblical literalism and the "inerrant Bible theory" are requirements of religious Christianity. They are not. There are many Christians who understand that the Bible is a collection of mankind's ideas ABOUT God, and not a God-dictated handbook of religious beliefs.

Like a lot of people, I simply can't allow myself to blindly believe in other people's religious fantasies and proclamations that deny and defy the truth of reality as I experience it. I believe that to do so is both dishonest, and mentally unhealthy. Yet at the same time, I am able to recognize the truthfulness, wisdom, and value of many of the stories in the Bible, so long as I interpret them as metaphors for the people and circumstances of my own life. So that's what I do. And the result is that I don't have to force myself to believe things that I don't believe.
This creates some consternation in me as I value the churches and the early Christians, and would like for the stories to be real, since it bothers me that bad things happen in the world, whereas resurrection could be a way to resolve them.
I think resurrection IS the way to resolve them. But not by physically dying and coming back to life 'in heaven'. Instead, by being spiritually reborn here and now: by understanding that as the "children of God" we have God's divine spirit of love and forgiveness and kindness and generosity within us. And that if we will allow that spirit to guide our thoughts and actions, it will heal us and save us from ourselves. And it will! It's a promise that I have see and experienced manifesting in my own life!
 
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