Greeting all
Can we agree that that the moment Jesus was born the process began of the Gospel of Salvation
No.
I'd bet that you don't even know what the gospel is!
if we read the Gospels we see that as Jesus was dying upon the cross he cried out loud just before he died " IT IS FINISHED "
When Jesus cried out "It is finished," the word He used was
τετέλεσται (
tetelestai). In English the word "It is finished" are technically accurate but fail to communicate the weight what 'tetelestai' would have carried in ancient times. It wasn’t just Jesus' way of saying He was about to die. It was a loud, deliberate, declaration of victory.
In the ancient world, 'tetelestai' showed up all over the place. Merchants wrote it on receipts to show a debt had been paid in full. No balance, no IOU, nothing left to cover. Judges would use it when a sentence had been carried out and justice satisfied. Priests, after offering up a sacrifice, could say tetelestai to announce the ritual was complete and nothing more was required. Soldiers used it to report that a mission was accomplished. Even tombstones sometimes carried the word to mark a life that had run its course.
I, for one, believe that when Jesus said it, He meant all of that.
The debt of sin - Paid.
Justice - Fulfilled.
The sacrifice - Complete.
The enemy - Defeated.
The work - Finished.
He didn’t just die. He completed something. And He declared it loud enough that nobody honest should miss the point. Nothing left to add. Nothing left to pay. Nothing more required.
Tetelestai!
For the Gospel we see it was a very slow spread in the beginning - we can look to such passages as we see below,.
Actually "about 3000" people believed after the very first sermon!
Mat 9:31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his " Jesus " fame in all that country.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
also, Paul here below is saying that he " PRIVATLY " already is preaching to the Gentiles, Paul tells us that he was specifically sent to the Gentiles.....that even then - he only was preaching privately and was not public about it,
Gal 2:2 .........I preach among the Gentiles, but privately..............
Obviously drawing entirely too much attention to and placing far more emphasis on a single word than the text itself can justify.
Was this your evidence of "slow growth"?
If so, you are more stupid that I had imagined. This is not how proper doctrine is formulated. Any cultist can pull this sort of nonsense and build whole doctrines out of single words yanked fully out of their context and removed entirely from their normal usage and meaning.
God has throughout all of the time in history since the beginning - also called the " GENTILES " to serve Him and to obey His law and ordinances.
He most certainly has not done any such thing.
Gentiles were never excluded as a group from salvation and denied the opportunity to live righteous lives in honor, respect, and obedience to God and His laws.
Generally speaking, any Gentile was permitted to become a proselyte Jew, but apart from that, there was no salvation apart from obedience to Moses (again - generally speaking).
We know that there were Gentiles in various places throughout the Old Testament who were Godly and Just characters. Such as various gentile kings and even gentiles who assisted the Jews and spoke of living for God and doing the right thing.
This is just theological revisionism. Of course Gentiles could live morally and honorably, and some even came to fear God, but that does not mean they were partakers of the covenants or had the same standing before God as Israel. There is a massive difference between individual exceptions and the national program God established.
The entire point of the mystery revealed to Paul is that Gentiles are now included on equal footing with Jews apart from Israel; not through her, not under her laws, and not by becoming proselytes. To claim that Gentiles were never excluded as a group from salvation is to gut the meaning of that mystery entirely.
Yes, Gentiles like Ruth, Rahab, and even Nebuchadnezzar had moments of faith or honor, but they were the exception, not the rule, and in some cases, they were brought under Israel’s program. None of that changes the fact that, until Paul, the Gentiles were “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” and “strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12). That was their status.
So no, the inclusion of Gentiles now is not just a continuation of some always open door. It is a new and distinct work of God in this dispensation.
The Egyptians were given full opportunity to obey and know God. God even performed great miracles and signs in the heart of Egypt.
The miracles God performed through Moses were the mechanism God used to harden their hearts, and more specifically, to harden Pharaoh's heart.
Balaam was believed to be a gentile prophet but He eventually turned against the god of Israel
You're not helping your case. Balaam is a perfect example of how your argument contradicts it's own premise. Yes, he was a Gentile, and yes, he had some interaction with the God of Israel, but the look at the outcome! He’s condemned throughout Scripture as a corrupt, greedy man who ultimately opposed God and led Israel into sin. The fact that God used him doesn’t mean he was ever in right standing with God. If anything, Balaam proves that a Gentile being given revelation doesn’t equate to full inclusion in God's redemptive plan.
God has always had the right to speak through or use anyone, including unbelievers. That doesn’t mean Gentiles were on equal footing with Israel or had direct access to the covenants and promises. In fact, Balaam’s story reinforces that exact point! Gentiles were outside the covenant. The mystery revealed through Paul wasn’t that Gentiles could occasionally honor God, it was that they could now be fully reconciled to Him apart from Israel, apart from the law, and without distinction.
Caleb also in Num 32:12 Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite had wholly completely followed the LORD.
The great hero of Judah was a Kenizzite, one of the Canaanite tribes
Jdg 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites,......
Rahab (Joshua 2): The Canaanite prostitute
Also here in Jos 9:7 And the men of Israel said unto the Hivites, Peradventure ye dwell among us; and how shall we make a league with you?
8 And they said unto Joshua, We are thy servants. And Joshua said unto them, Who are ye? and from whence come ye?
Jos9 And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,
Also Othniel (Judg 3:9): Othniel was Caleb’s brother and also a Canaanite - - Jdg 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
Jael (Judges 4-5): The killer of Sisera was a Kenite, a tribe of Canaanites
especially - we see
Ruth the Moabite: was in the genealogy of Jesus - Ruth the gentile Moabite - who served God
A gentile named - Obed - of - Edom - (2 Samuel 6): The Ark of the Covenant was kept safe and stored on His own property for a period of time. The Gentile man named Naaman in - 2 Kings 5 = The Aramean commander went to Elisha for healing
ALSO - The Gentile People of Nineveh in Jonah 3........ The gentile people of Nineveh believed in God at the preaching of Jonah.
None of these examples prove your point. You keep multiplying exceptions and pretending they establish a norm. They don’t. Every one of these cases is notable precisely because they were unusual. You’re listing individual Gentiles who responded to truth and were either blessed for it or brought under Israel’s authority, not evidence that Gentiles, as a group, had equal standing with Israel or shared in the covenants.
Caleb, Rahab, Ruth, and others were either assimilated into Israel or functioned under its program. That’s not the same thing as Gentile inclusion apart from Israel, which is exactly what Paul describes as the “mystery” revealed to him. You don’t reveal a “mystery” that has already been plainly demonstrated for 1,500 years!
Ephesians 2 doesn’t say that the Gentiles were “mostly included except for a few hard-hearted ones.” It says they were aliens, strangers, without hope, and without God in the world, "BUT
NOW in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." That’s a change! You’re clinging to the handful of exceptions as if they disprove the rule. They don’t. They confirm it.
Not many Gentiles were mentioned and detailed in description and recorded as serving and believing in God, however, the option was there and there were gentiles who did serve God in the Old Testament. Also, there were many Gentiles around other various parts of the world who were Godly people - though the Bible does not record their location.
The Gentiles had full opportunity to serve God and to obey Him - However, The Hebrew people were chosen by God with the obligation, task, duty, and responsibility of obeying and preserving His word and living clean, holy and Godly lives.
Noah was not a Hebrew / Jew - and He preached to everyone around Him.
The Bible describes Him as a preacher. We see in the Old Testament that God is giving Gentiles a chance to live for Him and all people to do right and obey
Now you've simply retreated into vague speculation. “Many Gentiles around the world who were godly people”, yet somehow not one is recorded in Scripture? That’s not evidence; that’s wishful thinking. You admit “not many Gentiles were mentioned,” but then jump to the unfounded claim that they had full opportunity to serve God. That directly contradicts Paul, who said they were "without God in the world and strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph. 2:12). You are not defending Scripture; you are rewriting it.
Yes, Noah wasn’t a Hebrew. That’s because he lived before Abraham. Your appeal to pre-Abrahamic figures doesn’t help your case. On the contrary, it highlights the very distinction God later established through Abraham and the nation of Israel. From that point forward, Israel was the channel of God’s revelation, and the Gentiles were not included unless they became a proselyte by getting circumcised and submitted themselves to Israel’s program.
You’re conflating, probably intentionally so, God’s universal righteousness with universal covenant access. God has always expected righteousness from everyone, but that’s not the same as saying everyone had the same standing before Him. The entire reason Paul’s message is called the mystery is because Gentiles now have access to God apart from Israel. That was NOT true before and listing a few assimilated Gentiles doesn’t change that.
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