Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[DAN P]

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:6-8&version=NKJV



Honestly, If you think about it, people in heaven are probably busier interacting with others, and probably aren't paying too much attention to the things that happen on earth.



Bad theology because of not knowing what the Bible says.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep,

ie, dead

lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

those who died who had a personal relationship with God

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

talking about when bodies are raised at the rapture

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Again, at the rapture, bodies will be raised

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Thessalonians4:13-18&version=NKJV

Agree, because of what I said above.



Agreed.

Hi judgeRightly , the 2 Cor 5:6-8 , YOU Cut him off at the knee caps !!

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

I These 4:13-18 makes it clear that no human except for Jesus Christ is presently in heaven

 

[oatmeal]

Moreover, where does the theology that people are "looking down on us" from heaven?

Where does that come from?

I noticed in during the Billy Graham funeral his daughter said that "Daddy was in heaven", but then she turned around and quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which literally contradicts that theology.

People really are confused about what the Bible states concerning the state of the dead.

Not only is this sad, but also extremely dangerous.

Scripture does not say that at all.

I did not view BG's daughter's sermon, but she cannot have it both ways.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is plain as day. No one gets to heaven until Jesus Christ returns to gather us up.

The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with tnem and SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD!!

That is how we shall ever be with the lord and not one moment sooner

 

[oatmeal]

Hi judgeRightly , the 2 Cor 5:6-8 , YOU Cut him off at the knee caps !!

dan p

II Corinthians 5:6-8 says what?

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Please show me where the word "immediately" is found in that passage.

Are you adding to scripture?

 

[Derf]

II Corinthians 5:6-8 says what?

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Please show me where the word "immediately" is found in that passage.

Are you adding to scripture?

I'm not sure the word "immediately" is needed. When only 2 states are expressed, the assumption is that there is no third state. Whether it is a valid assumption we can investigate using other scripture.

The narrative examples of any kind of life after death are few, and we don't have many details (Samuel's appearance to Saul at Endor is the best I know). Job's poetic description of returning in his own flesh and seeing with his own eyes (Job 19:25-26) makes it seem like nothing is happening for him in between times--in other words, he is looking forward to seeing God in his resurrected flesh and with his resurrected eyes, and not before. Who else talks of the resurrection in the Old Testament?

Isaiah did: Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [Isa 26:19 KJV]

Daniel did: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. [Dan 12:2 KJV]
But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. [Dan 12:13 KJV]

The theme in the Old Testament was one of resurrection, not spiritual presence in heaven. And it seems to confirm a loss of awareness for awhile--like Daniel going to his rest, the those that dwell in dust awakening in Isaiah, and Job's looking forward to seeing God only after his resurrection.

So, going back to your "immediately" requirement. The Old Testament does talk about a third state--one of "rest" or "sleep". So does the new Testament. Jesus talked both of Lazarus (brother of Mary and Martha) and Jairus' daughter as only being asleep, but He had to clarify to His disciples that Lazarus really was dead:
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. [Jhn 11:11 KJV]
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. [Jhn 11:14 KJV]

Paul had a great opportunity to explain that dead believers are really in heaven already when he talked to the Thessalonians, but he didn't say that. He said this, instead:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [1Th 4:13 NKJV]
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [1Th 4:14 NKJV]
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [1Th 4:16 NKJV]

It seems like the dead in Christ have to rise first (Vs 16) before they are brought with Him (Vs 14).

So both the OT and the NT talk of dead people being "asleep", and the verses often seem to indicate no awareness during the "sleep".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [1Th 4:13 NKJV]
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [1Th 4:14 NKJV]
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [1Th 4:16 NKJV]

It seems like the dead in Christ have to rise first (Vs 16) before they are brought with Him (Vs 14).

No, those in Christ will be with Him as He descends and then they will put on new bodies like the Lord's body.

 

[way 2 go]

I'm not sure the word "immediately" is needed. When only 2 states are expressed, the assumption is that there is no third state. Whether it is a valid assumption we can investigate using other scripture.


So both the OT and the NT talk of dead people being "asleep", and the verses often seem to indicate no awareness during the "sleep".

sleep when used about death refers to the physical body

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[Derf]

No, those in Christ will be with Him as He descends and then they will put on new bodies like the Lord's body.

I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive. Whether we join Him in the air and descend with Him, or join Him in the air and ascend with Him is a good thing to debate, but there's no indication in that particular verse that says anybody comes from heaven with Jesus.

Do you have other verses?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive. Whether we join Him in the air and descend with Him, or join Him in the air and ascend with Him is a good thing to debate...

The fact that there will be some saints who will descend with Him provides evidence that those saints are already in heaven.

 

[Derf]

sleep when used about death refers to the physical body

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I brought up Lu 23:43 in a different post. I agree it makes more sense to suggest that the thief was with Jesus after death, and in a state of awareness. But as a single verse in favor of the awareness concept, it is not real strong, verses the other verses that talk about "sleep". And where was Jesus that day after He died--prior to His own resurrection? Some say this verse says He was preaching to the spirits in Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise. If so, it's a great argument for awareness after death. But it's a little light in terms of number of verses.

1 Thess 4 speaks of a gathering in the clouds where we will meet Jesus, after it says "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus".

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [1Th 4:14 NKJV]
Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 NKJV]

Part of the issue might be trying to understand which direction we're going after we meet Him in the air. If we're going up to heaven, it makes more sense than if we are returning to earth. We start getting into other presuppositions here.

Regarding the souls under the altar, they are told to "rest a little longer", which is applied, according to the thread of logic, to the spirits, not the bodies. Thus, while the bodies are sleeping, as you say, the spirits are "resting". I'm not sure why we need to be distinguishing. I think the best way to look at that verse is to see it in prophetic terms. The vision John had showed those souls as a way to illustrate that there were earlier martyrs and later martyrs. It doesn't have to be a statement on awareness, and if it is, it's a better statement for no awareness than for awareness, at least most of the time.

 

[Derf]

The fact that there will be some saints who will descend with Him provides evidence that those saints are already in heaven.

Depends on where they are descending from and where they are descending to. If He continues His descent after we meet Him in the air, then no saints need to start the descent in heaven--they just continue with Him from the clouds.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Depends on where they are descending from...

Of course they are descending from heaven. That means that they are in heaven before the saints will be caught up. So right now there are saints in the heavenly sphere.

 

[Derf]

Of course they are descending from heaven. That means that they are in heaven before the saints will be caught up. So right now there are saints in the heavenly sphere.

Thanks for the wonderful sample of begging the question.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks for the wonderful sample of begging the question.

That's not begging the question but instead it is reasoning out of the Scriptures.

 

[Derf]

That's not begging the question but instead it is reasoning out of the Scriptures.

Show me the scriptures then. Just repeating as the conclusion what you've asserted as a premise with no other evidence is definitely begging the question.

 

[DAN P]

I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive. Whether we join Him in the air and descend with Him, or join Him in the air and ascend with Him is a good thing to debate, but there's no indication in that particular verse that says anybody comes from heaven with Jesus.

Do you have other verses?

Hi Derf , and 1 Thess 4:13-18 fits the bill !!


Verse 15-18 describe it !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Show me the scriptures then. Just repeating as the conclusion what you've asserted as a premise with no other evidence is definitely begging the question.

Here we see that there will be some people who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends so there will already be people in heaven when He descends:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess.4:14-16).​

Those are described as being dead in Christ or which sleep in Jesus will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends and they will be raised in new bodies first. From this we know that the saints will be in heaven when the living saints will be caught up at the rapture.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Moreover, where does the theology that people are "looking down on us" from heaven?

Where does that come from?

Hebrews 12:1 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

 

[genuineoriginal]

I read good

No, you don't.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Here we see that there will be some people who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends so there will already be people in heaven when He descends:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess.4:14-16).​

Those are described as being dead in Christ or which sleep in Jesus will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends and they will be raised in new bodies first. From this we know that the saints will be in heaven when the living saints will be caught up at the rapture.

You missed an important verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

When Jesus returns, the dead shall be raised from the dead and both the raised dead and the living Christians will be caught up together to meet Jesus in the air.
The dead do not return with Jesus until after they are raised from the dead and are caught up into the air to meet Jesus.