Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

Hi Derf , and 1 Thess 4:13-18 fits the bill !!


Verse 15-18 describe it !!

dan p

Here we see that there will be some people who will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends so there will already be people in heaven when He descends:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess.4:14-16).​

Those are described as being dead in Christ or which sleep in Jesus will be with the Lord Jesus when He descends and they will be raised in new bodies first. From this we know that the saints will be in heaven when the living saints will be caught up at the rapture.

Thanks, Jerry and Dan.
What I've been trying to point out is that when it says Jesus will bring with Him those that are asleep, the text is accurate whether Jesus brings them from heaven to the earth, or from the clouds to the earth. Thus, that verse by itself is not a proof of spirits in heaven prior to that point in time.

Let's dissect it a bit.

[1Th 4:13 NKJV] But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
This first verse introduces the topic of Paul's essay--it's about those who have fallen asleep, and Paul is trying to build up hope in those that are still "alive and remain" (from vs. 17).

[1Th 4:14 NKJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
This verse explains that Jesus will bring with Him those who sleep, as both of you pointed out. But it also clarifies what it means to "bring with Him those who are asleep" by saying it will be just as Jesus died and rose again--which He did bodily.

[1Th 4:15 NKJV] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
This verse says that those that are alive when He comes will not get to Jesus prior to those that have died prior to His coming.

[1Th 4:16 NKJV] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
This verse expounds on the previous one to say that the dead will rise before the one who are still alive (thus they will "precede" the alive, rather than the other way around.

[1Th 4:17 NKJV] Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Now we see that we shall catch up with the early risers (the dead in Christ--the preceders), and we shall meet Him in the clouds/in the air.

[1Th 4:18 NKJV] Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This may be the most important verse, where Paul concludes his essay with a repetition of his opening thought--that he is writing these things to comfort the believers about their dead loved ones. Here we see that THESE ARE THE WORDS we should use to comfort one another. "THESE WORDS" are that the dead in Christ will be raised at the coming of the Lord. Nowhere in "THESE WORDS" does it say that we should comfort one another by saying the dead are already in Christ's presence.

So, when we are comforting a mourning friend who just lost a believing spouse, we are going against what Paul says when we say, "Your loved one is now in heaven looking down on us."

Keep in mind that I'm not saying the spirits of our dear departed ones are NOT in heaven spiritually--I don't know whether that's the case or not. But the reason I don't know that is because the bible doesn't say that, especially here in 1 Thess 4.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks, Jerry and Dan.What I've been trying to point out is that when it says Jesus will bring with Him those that are asleep, the text is accurate whether Jesus brings them from heaven to the earth, or from the clouds to the earth.

What would the saints who are described as being asleep in Jesus be in the clouds when the Lord descends from heaven?

 

[Derf]

What would the saints who are described as being asleep in Jesus be in the clouds when the Lord descends from heaven?

That's not really worthy of you, Jerry.

The text is obviously talking about a future condition (in the clouds) vs a present condition (asleep). After they've been "awakened", they will no longer be asleep, but will both "risen" (resurrected) and "rising" (to meet Jesus in the air).

If you're looking for a better angle, I recommend the thief on the cross--"Today you will be with me in paradise".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The dead do not return with Jesus until after they are raised from the dead and are caught up into the air to meet Jesus.

First we see that Paul says that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. Then Paul speaks of Him descending but you say that those who sleep in Jesus will not be with Him when He descends.

That makes no sense!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The text is obviously talking about a fu
ture condition (in the clouds) vs a present condition (asleep). After they've been "awakened", they will no longer be asleep, but will both "risen" (resurrected) and "rising" (to meet Jesus in the air).

So you really think that the spiritual, heavenly bodies which Christians will put on when they will be raised up are the same bodies which are now in the grave?

Even though Paul describes those bodies as being eternal in the heavens (2 Cor.5:1) and Peter describes them as being reserved in heaven (1 Pet.1:4)?

Strange!

 

[Derf]

So you really think that the spiritual, heavenly bodies which Christians will put on when they will be raised up are the same bodies which are now in the grave?

Even though Paul describes those bodies as being eternal in the heavens (2 Cor.5:1) and Peter describes them as being reserved in heaven (1 Pet.1:4)?

Strange!

I don't know that such needs to be part of the same conversation. Maybe you can tell me why you think it's pertinent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know that such needs to be part of the same conversation. Maybe you can tell me why you think it's pertinent.

From what you said I thought that you were saying that those who are described as being asleep in Jesus will be raised up in bodies which are on the earth and in the graves.

If that is not what you are saying then please set me straight.

 

[Derf]

From what you said I thought that you were saying that those who are described as being asleep in Jesus will be raised up in bodies which are on the earth and in the graves.

If that is not what you are saying then please set me straight.

I don't know that I understand the question. My thought on the bodies we will be raised in is that they will somehow correspond to our old bodies, yet they will be raised incorruptible. Something will be different, but some things will be the same.

But I'm still not getting why this has anything to do with the present conversation, as I wasn't saying anything on that topic.

Again, you seem to think it is related, so please explain the relationship.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But I'm still not getting why this has anything to do with the present conversation, as I wasn't saying anything on that topic.

Please tell me the sequence of events which will happen when the Lord Jesus descends from heaven in regard to those described as being asleep in Jesus and them being raised from the dead.

 

[Derf]

Please tell me the sequence of events which will happen when the Lord Jesus descends from heaven in regard to those described as being asleep in Jesus and them being raised from the dead.

1. [1Th 4:16 NKJV] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
2. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
3. [1Th 4:17 NKJV] Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
4. to meet the Lord in the air.
5. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The text is obviously talking about a future condition (in the clouds) vs a present condition (asleep). After they've been "awakened", they will no longer be asleep, but will both "risen" (resurrected) and "rising" (to meet Jesus in the air).

Then how can it be said that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with Him?

It seems to me that according to what you said those who sleep in Jesus will only meet Him in the air.

 

[Derf]

Then how can it be said that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with Him?

It seems to me that according to what you said those who sleep in Jesus will only meet Him in the air.

Then He will bring them with Him as He comes down to earth, because they (and we) will be with Him always. But before that, I'm not so sure that everybody is with Him, especially if they are only meeting Him in the air.

If their body is not together with their spirit, then they can't be meeting Him in the air--only their inanimate bodies would be meeting Him in the air, but THEY would already be with Him.

The question works as well for you as for me--How can anyone that has been with Christ and is coming with Him meet Him in the air? Unless they meet Him in the air and then come with Him to the earth, which is what I've been proposing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If their body is not together with their spirit, then they can't be meeting Him in the air--only their inanimate bodies would be meeting Him in the air, but THEY would already be with Him.

So where do you think that the souls of people go when they are described as being "naked" (2 Cor.5:3)?

 

[Derf]

So where do you think that the souls of people go when they are described as being "naked" (2 Cor.5:3)?

Can you detect your presupposition in your question, Jerry? The presupposition that the souls actually go somewhere? Why do they need to "go" somewhere? What if they just cease to exist for awhile? Is that a problem for God to resurrect them from scratch after they've been dead for 10, or 100, or 1000 years?

Once you get past your presupposition, doesn't the next verse answer your question?
[2Co 5:4 NKJV] For we who are in [this] tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

Immortality is being "further clothed" not naked. And Vs 3 does not describe them as being naked, but as not being naked: "having been clothed, we shall not be found naked". Where's the nakedness? except possibly in your presuppositions.

Paul is comparing two states, as far as I can tell--one of being clothed in mortal clothing (our earthly bodies) and one of being clothed in immortal clothing (our resurrected or heavenly bodies).

It even suggests that it requires that clothing to be equated with life.

Once again, I'm not trying to say there is no possibility of a bodiless human. I'm only having a hard time finding it in scripture, which was the question [MENTION=16506]MarcATL[/MENTION] was asking. (Where did he go, anyway??)

I gave you one clue to refuting my argument. I'll give you another. Check out Mark 12:27a.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where's the nakedness? except possibly in your presuppositions.

A soul will be naked when the outward man perishes and only the inward man remains (2 Cor.4:16).

That will be the condition of Christians who have died physically until they put on a body just like the Lord Jesus' spiritual body.

Are you saying that the soul doesn't leave his body when that body no longer functions?

If not, where does the soul go?

 

[Derf]

A soul will be naked when the outward man perishes and only the inward man remains (2 Cor.4:16).

That will be the condition of Christians who have died physically until they put on a body just like the Lord Jesus' spiritual body.

Are you saying that the soul doesn't leave his body when that body no longer functions?

If not, where does the soul go?

Your presupposition says that the soul has to "go somewhere". Why?

I don't know that the soul stays with the body. Maybe the soul doesn't exist for awhile. We like to think that our souls (or spirits, depending on whom you ask) are eternal. But do they have to be, or is it a false conclusion based on false premises?

I'm interested in the answer, but I'd like it to be one that comes not from a presupposition, but from scripture without extra meaning applied to it. It could be that such a path will lead back to the standard answer, but it might also lead to a new or better understanding. Maybe we are having the same problem as the Sadducees--that we are badly mistaken (Mark 12:27) about the soul and heaven. They had some presuppositions, and tried to trap Jesus to get His confirmation. He showed that their presuppositions were wrong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your presupposition says that the soul has to "go somewhere". Why?

I just can't imagine the inward man staying with a physical body while it returns to dust, especially with the following words of Paul in view:

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord...So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Paul is saying that when a Christian is away from the body he is at home with the Lord.

We like to think that our souls (or spirits, depending on whom you ask) are eternal. But do they have to be, or is it a false conclusion based on false premises?

We are told that we already possess eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) so if a soul ceases to exist for awhile after being saved then that life cannot be described as being eternal.

 

[Derf]

I just can't imagine the inward man staying with a physical body while it returns to dust, especially with the following words of Paul in view:

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord...So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Paul is saying that when a Christian is away from the body he is at home with the Lord.

Yes, and he's also saying that we don't want to be unclothed (2 Cor 5:3)

If (vs 5) we prefer to be away from the body so to be at home with the Lord,
and if (vs 3) we prefer to be clothed rather than naked,
and if (2 Cor 5:4) both the beginning state and ending state are "clothed" states,
then he seems to be saying that we will be clothed when we are with the Lord.

I think it is reasonable to see Paul's description of both "away from the body" and being "unclothed" as referring to death. Is it not also reasonable to see Paul's description of being clothed immortally as referring to everlasting life? But if we are in a naked state, which you are arguing for, and which Paul says we are NOT desiring (vs 4), then are we really enjoying everlasting life in that state?

We are told that we already possess eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) so if a soul ceases to exist for awhile after being saved then that life cannot be described as being eternal.

Sounds like one of my arguments: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...on-to-Knight&p=5203887&viewfull=1#post5203887
Thus you've just argued for the "foregone conclusion" theory. Thanks!

But I acknowledge that I don't see a biblical case for a soul not to be existing during the period between death and resurrection. The term Jesus and other biblical authors (before and after Christ) use is "sleeping". And I don't know how that works. It could be that souls are sleeping in some holding place somewhere (like "Abraham's bosom"). If "sleeping" refers only to the body, then the passage in Rev 6:11 doesn't seem to make sense, although it speaks of a holding place, of sorts (under the altar).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes

So you agree with what I said here?:

Paul is saying that when a Christian is away from the body he is at home with the Lord.​

So when the inward man is away from the body he is at home with the Lord. And the Lord is in heaven so the Christian who is at home with the Lord is in heaven now.

 

[DAN P]

We are told that we already possess eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) so if a soul ceases to exist for awhile after being saved then that life cannot be described as being eternal.

Hi Jerry and where is found in 1 John 5:11 is it speaking to the B O C and where we LOSE Eternal life ??

dan p