andyc
New member
I'm reminded of what Bob Barker always used to say at the end of the price is right.
ECT WILL PENTECOSTALS TELL US WHY ??
- Thread starter DAN P
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I'm reminded of what Bob Barker always used to say at the end of the price is right.
revpete
New member
Yes, the whole question is an interesting one indeed and I thank you for the thread.
Pete
revpete
New member
Well you quoted Eph 2:8 and that's about it in a nutshell. Man is dead in sin! As such he is able to do nothing for himself. If you ask a physically dead person to do something physical you're not gonna get a response. In the same way a spiritually dead person can do nothing spiritual including respond to the gospel, unless God by His grace quickens them first. The order is IMO grace which brings conviction, repentance, regeneration, and adoption. That order is debatable I know
Pete
revpete
New member
turbosixx
New member
Well you quoted Eph 2:8 and that's about it in a nutshell. Man is dead in sin! As such he is able to do nothing for himself. If you ask a physically dead person to do something physical you're not gonna get a response. In the same way a spiritually dead person can do nothing spiritual including respond to the gospel, unless God by His grace quickens them first. The order is IMO grace which brings conviction, repentance, regeneration, and adoption. That order is debatable I know
Pete
The order looks good to me. I would like to challenge you on your view of spiritually dead.
Looking at the prodigal son, what did the father do and what did the son do.
17 But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18 I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;..... 20 So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. .....22But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
The way I read it, although spiritually dead and lost, he knew where to find salvation and he went to the father. Spiritually dead is not like physically dead.
Cross Reference
New member
That is a very poor understanding of the facts, Pete. To prove it, all you have to do is read the many accounts that say you are wrong. Start with Abel and work your way forward.
revpete
New member
Leaving aside for the moment the fundamental error of building a doctrine based on a parable. The question is, what brought him to his senses? Was it his predicament alone or was it the grace of God in conjunction with his state? The point of this parable is metaphorical, the elder self righteous brother is the Scribes and Pharisees while the prodigal represents those Jews who see their state and come to repentance, rather like the two men praying in the temple, the one conscious of his true state before God, the other trusting in his works. Of course the same goes for all who are brought to true faith in Christ.
If the sinner knows where to find salvation then he can't be totally lost. The Bible teaches us that none seeks after God Rom 3:11. Men love darkness rather than light Jn 3:19. That's why the prodigal son is not the best illustration of the salvation of a lost Gentile. Rather it applies more to the Jew although there are universal principles that apply.
Pete
revpete
New member
The problem with that CR is that you either have to put man at the centre and make salvation dependent on him or you God at the centre and make salvation dependent on Him. Which is it for you? The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism will only end when Jesus returns and sorts it out!
Pete
It is not one or the other.
It depends on what the saved do, (in themselves first) as to how the Body grows both in strength and numbers.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
turbosixx
New member
Jesus used parables to teach, I choose to learn from them.
"the elder self righteous brother is the Scribes and Pharisees" How is that possible? 31And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. That is not the scribes and Pharisees.
"If the sinner knows where to find salvation then he can't be totally lost." Bible says he was lost, he was lost. 24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.'
I find it interesting that when the bible says something that fits peoples thinking, they take it at face value. 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." but when it says something that doesn't fit their thinking, 16He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; then we must look deeper into why it doesn't mean what it clearly says.
Cross Reference
New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
That is a very poor understanding of the facts, Pete. To prove it, all you have to do is read the many accounts that say you are wrong. Start with Abel and work your way forward.
Original by revpete
Why? When it is only redemption by Jesus Christ man had nothing to with. However, or it to be made effective for man's salvation, man has to believe the account and a make a decision ___ he has to choose, just like Joshua instructed them to do after he made his choice to serve God. You would have it that man can't choose when there is no basis for believing that. That is why I said "start with Abel and come from in time to read of the many accounts of 'ungifted', 'spiritually dead', man choosing God".
I don't see it as being arguable. The written word has already sorted it out. All one has to do is read without an agenda to prove it wrong that his religious bent might be preserved.
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
That is a very poor understanding of the facts, Pete. To prove it, all you have to do is read the many accounts that say you are wrong. Start with Abel and work your way forward.
Original by revpete
Why? When it is only redemption by Jesus Christ man had nothing to with. However, or it to be made effective for man's salvation, man has to believe the account and a make a decision ___ he has to choose, just like Joshua instructed them to do after he made his choice to serve God. You would have it that man can't choose when there is no basis for believing that. That is why I said "start with Abel and come from in time to read of the many accounts of 'ungifted', 'spiritually dead', man choosing God".
I don't see it as being arguable. The written word has already sorted it out. All one has to do is read without an agenda to prove it wrong that his religious bent might be preserved.
Cross Reference
New member
What was the spiritual condition of the 99 and 9 that the one Jesus went after would seem to be more precious to Him that He should rejoice so when He found Him? Was the one lost sheep a rebellious sheep Jesus had to hog tie to bring it back kicking and screaming? Why did he get lost to begin with? And are we to assume that the 99 and 9 were herded about by Jesus into the wilderness against their will because they were "predestinated" to be His, whether they liked it or not??
"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. . . . I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.Luke 15:4-5,7 (KJV)
I would like to hear the Calvinist spin on that passage.
revpete
New member
Jesus used earthly stories (parables) to teach spiritual truths. When Jesus taught doctrine He normally spoke plainly such as in the sermon on the mount.
Yes, the Jews had always been God's covenant people and in that sense had always been with Him.
Lost carries the same meaning as dead and both mean separation. He was separated from his father but knew where and how to find him.
Most of the time scripture does mean what it says and there is no need to look further. Occasionally though, especially when doctrine is involved one needs to take into consideration the whole council of God.
Pete
revpete
New member
WILL PENTECOSTALS TELL US WHY ??
In post #223 the original question to me was: How does a person go from being lost to saved and then Eph 2:8 was quoted. You have just used what debaters term, a machine-gun answer ie rattling off a long answer which has nothing to do with the original question. The question concerned salvation and its mechanisms not what the saved do.
I have given you my answer to that question and stated... well you know what I said. My point was that IMO Calvinism is God cantered and Arminianism is more man centred. You answer, as far as I can see (unless I have misunderstood you and if that is so then I apologise) has nothing to do with my statement in my last post.
Pete
It is not one or the other.
It depends on what the saved do, (in themselves first) as to how the Body grows both in strength and numbers.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
In post #223 the original question to me was: How does a person go from being lost to saved and then Eph 2:8 was quoted. You have just used what debaters term, a machine-gun answer ie rattling off a long answer which has nothing to do with the original question. The question concerned salvation and its mechanisms not what the saved do.
I have given you my answer to that question and stated... well you know what I said. My point was that IMO Calvinism is God cantered and Arminianism is more man centred. You answer, as far as I can see (unless I have misunderstood you and if that is so then I apologise) has nothing to do with my statement in my last post.
Pete
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revpete
New member
He went looking for it because it belonged to Him. That's the point, even though it wandered away it never stopped being His! Just like the prodigal son.
Pete
Cross Reference
New member
He went looking for it because it belonged to Him. That's the point, even though it wandered away it never stopped being His! Just like the prodigal son.
Pete
That doesn't explain why the 'sheep' left, does it?
revpete
New member
The sheep left because it was a sheep and as such is wilful and stupid. Don't forget that Jesus is using metaphor here. The point is the lengths that The Lord will go to for His own. Even genuine believers can stray as shown in the parable of the prodigal. He was a genuine son but was wilful and determined to have his own way. He thought he knew what best for himself but even in the midst of his rebellion he never stopped being his father's son.
Pete
Cross Reference
New member
. . . . and his father never went back for him either. Can't you see a difference in the stories? Both were 'sheep'. Both belonged.
Hi and the only reason I am replying , because it is on my OP !
This parable has nothing to do with the Body of Christ !!
It is about Israel and their departure from following the Law and Christ coming unto to His own , dying to redeem those that are Lost !!
The Gentiles are set aside in Rom 1:1-32 !!
Israel was also set aside as recorded in Luke 13:6-9 !
dan p
revpete
New member
That's because his father in this parable does not typify the shepherd and his son does not typify a lost sheep.
Pete