beloved57
Well-known member
You lost me, you not making much sense friend. Maybe you need to go back to the OP and reread it more carefully so you speak with intelligence on this matter.
What Jesus do you believe on ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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If you read 1 John 2:2 in a reliable version you will find that Jesus was not made the proportion just for the sins of the elect but also for the sins of the whole world.
yourpoint?
Member
And would you tell them that "Sovereign" means creator of all sin and righteousness, hater and creator of damned babies for personal pleasure, and that he willed creation to be cursed?
And would you tell them the whole truth, that "all" doesn't mean all, but rather, "all" means only some?
And it's his will to take pleasure, in all the sin of this world, that he has created for his own self-satisfaction?
And when they asked if you love them, would you tell them that you don't know if you can, because you only 'love' what the creator of evil 'loves'?
And when they asked if Jesus loves them, would you tell them you don't know?
And when they asked if they would go to heaven, would you tell them that you don't know if Jesus was good enough for them?
beloved57
Well-known member
Some sinners.
OZOS
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus knows that You are a liar, a con man, and a coward.
Answer the question, you pervert...
How does Jesus give eternal life?
OZOS
Well-known member
The same heresy that Jerry Shugart spreads. This is a direct contradiction of the gospel, which is why no Calvinist has eternal life.
You two clowns will both experience eternal separation from God.
Jesus died for OUR sins is an essential foundation to the Gospel message. To exclude His once for all sacrifice for the sins of the whole world is to proclaim, not only a false gospel, but to strip THE Gospel of it's power to save. Today's reformers are convinced and convincing their disciples that the propitiation for our sins was a "Limited Atonement" for the "elect" who were "predestined" for salvation.
How did they arrive at that, and why is it important?
First of all, the "Limited Atonement" doctrine was established from a complete misunderstanding of the death of Jesus. Whether it was Calvin's absolute view or derived from his view is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is a view held today by many who are having an impact on Christianity around the world.
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Rom 5:10
Reformers believe and teach that they are saved by the death of Jesus. However, the death of Jesus does not save anyone.
The death of Jesus for our sins is absolutely essential for anyone TO BE saved, but man's problem is greater - he is dead and needs life.
It is the death of Jesus that justifies us to receive His life, and it is His life that saves us, not His death.
"...who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Believing that His death saves us is why the reformers must believe that His sacrifice for sins is "limited" to only those who God has "chosen" and "predestined" for salvation. According to their logical progression, His sacrifice for sins must be "limited" to a specific group of people, because if it was for the whole world, then the whole world would be saved. This is why God had to choose and predestine who the sacrifice is for, because, to the reformer, Jesus died only for those who are saved.
Millions of people have adopted this erroneous view, and have laid waste the message and power of the Gospel to save "whosoever will".
As Paul continues to explain in Romans 5:18:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
It is the same ALL.
ALL men, without exception, are dead because of the one offense of Adam, yet ALL men are justified to receive His life.
Salvation is life - His life. We are saved by His life, not by His death. His death makes it possible for the whole world to be saved (whosoever will), because as John writes:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jon 2:2
Therefore...
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for IT IS the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16
Any attempt to remove man's response to the message of the gospel makes the gospel powerless.
yourpoint?
Member
LOL
You said,
Therefore, you are claiming that the elect are "his people".
However, you said you agreed with this:
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Therefore, since you agreed that "his people" are saved already, Jesus could not be coming to save "his people" (the elect), because they are already saved. Saved people don't need to be saved!
It says, "he shall save his people", so "his people" still needed saving. You agreed that the elect are saved already. Sooo..., who are "his people" that "he shall save"?
That's why I asked:
You agreed that they are already saved.
So answer your own problem and tell us, who are "his people" that needed to be saved?
Again, you agreed that the elect were already saved; hence, who are "his people" that "he shall save"?
beloved57
Well-known member
Okay, its obvious you dont know what biblical Salvation is all about. The One Salvation of God by Christ has at least 4 dimensions. There is the Eternal Dimension wherein Gods Elect are saved by the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ Jesus wherein Grace and Purpose was given them before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
This Purpose did have as its focal point what Christ Jesus would do in time on the Cross.
Secondlly, The Elect are saved legally by the actual death of Christ for them in time, when He actually shed His Blood, that was the actual legal payment for their sins, which had been purposed before the foundation.
Thirdly, the Elect are Spiritually saved from the power of their sins when God the Holy Spirit quickens them for Christs Sake. See even though the elect are saved eternally, legally, they are still born spiritually dead to God and by nature are His enemies Rom 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
So the Elect by the Spirits work in them are saved subjectively from or out of Spiritual death by the New Birth,
Finally the Elect will be saved from the very presence of sin and will experience total conformity to the image of Christ/Glorification at the second coming of Christ.
All of this Great Salvation is foundationed on Jesus Christ, for He shall save His People from their sins !
That's the trouble with having to ignore some verses, change others and misinterpret even others in order to try to make human sense of God's Word. Some people who think God hated human sinners from before they were born and designed to torture them in hell forever for His own pleasure and for no other significant reason, must change one word in 1 John 2:2 from "all" to "some."
yourpoint?
Member
Do you know why they wanted to stone Jesus?
John 10:33, "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
Do you know the language of that day better than the people of that day understood it?
Mark 2:5-7, "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"
Maybe these guys didn't understand the language either?
beloved57
Well-known member
Yep, all can be understood as some. All of whatever particular some you are speaking about, that's elementary friend.
Why do you ignore every argument anyone ever makes against your doctrine?
What is the point of you being here?
Nanja
Well-known member
Amen !
OZOS
Well-known member
Calvinism says... 2 + 2 = 5
God says... 2 + 2 = 4
God says... 1+1+1+1 = 4
God- "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Jesus taught others to forgive sin; it was the imagination of the Pharisees, and Judeans that he was making himself God also.
Evidently, you don't understand either.
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Jesus taught people to forgive those who repent, not to forgive without the person repenting.
yourpoint?
Member
Ah, now I got it; The elect were always saved, but not really saved, so Jesus had to come to make sure they were really saved because they were not really saved. Sweet..., I missed the part where it says that Jesus came to "legally" save his people. So now I understand. God saved them "by the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ Jesus" "before the world began," then created sin and the curse of death, so the elect would need to be "legally" saved, so that Jesus could come to legally save them from the sin that God created. Therefore, God saved Jesus's people "before the world began", unsaved them by creating sin and cursing them to death, and then cursed and killed Jesus, so that Jesus could "save his people from their sins"; sins which God had created, to unsave "his people" in order to curse Jesus, to save "his people".
God came up with a great plan and a really efficient way to do it.
And I wonder why Jesus wept over Jerusalem?
Apparently Jesus didn't know the "eternal purpose".
It's quite interesting that you believe God would purpose to damn more of the beings created in his own image and likeness, than he purposed to curse and then save, and do so by cursing his own son to die because of sin that God created.
Really?
"All of this Great Salvation is foundationed" solely on a purpose whereby God created damned babies, would not save them, sent Jesus to be cursed and killed, for people who were never going to be damned anyways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..................And YOU call that "this Great Salvation!
Who told you that "his people" are a few 'elect'? To consider that your "Great Salvation" would give God glory, demeans the character of God far below that of Satan's, who apparently was a puppet of your 'sovereign god'.
You may be right; however,
Romans 5:15-21
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.",
rips your "Great Salvation" to shreds!
beloved57
Well-known member
Now you should understand where I am coming from So there are 4 phases of Salvation, what are they according to my post ?Ah, now I got it; The elect were always saved, but not really saved, so Jesus had to come to make sure they were really saved because they were not really saved. Sweet..., I missed the part where it says that Jesus came to "legally" save his people. So now I understand. God saved them "by the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ Jesus" "before the world began," then created sin and the curse of death, so the elect would need to be "legally" saved, so that Jesus could come to legally save them from the sin that God created. Therefore, God saved Jesus's people "before the world began", unsaved them by creating sin and cursing them to death, and then cursed and killed Jesus, so that Jesus could "save his people from their sins"; sins which God had created, to unsave "his people" in order to curse Jesus, to save "his people".
God came up with a great plan and a really efficient way to do it.
And I wonder why Jesus wept over Jerusalem?
Apparently Jesus didn't know the "eternal purpose".
It's quite interesting that you believe God would purpose to damn more of the beings created in his own image and likeness, than he purposed to curse and then save, and do so by cursing his own son to die because of sin that God created.
Really?
"All of this Great Salvation is foundationed" solely on a purpose whereby God created damned babies, would not save them, sent Jesus to be cursed and killed, for people who were never going to be damned anyways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..................And YOU call that "this Great Salvation!
Who told you that "his people" are a few 'elect'? To consider that your "Great Salvation" would give God glory, demeans the character of God far below that of Satan's, who apparently was a puppet of your 'sovereign god'.
You may be right; however,
Romans 5:15-21
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.",
rips your "Great Salvation" to shreds!
yourpoint?
Member
That's irrelevant.
It's about what Jesus encouraged them to believe. Was Jesus blaspheming?
You are right; I don't understand the language of Jesus's day as clearly as the Pharisees and others that spoke it and heard it.
So you think Jesus was lying when he encouraged them to believe he was God? He realized what they were thinking and reinforced that idea; therefore, according to Jewish law, Jesus was blaspheming, if he was not God. So, was Jesus lying and being a blasphemer, or was he God?
And again, you are right. I don't understand the language as well as Jesus's disciples, but it sure looks like Thomas believed Jesus was God.
John 20:27-29, "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
Jesus definitely affirmed Thomas's words of belief that He was God; was Jesus lying or was Thomas right?
Don't you want to believe that Jesus was God? Even people who didn't believe Jesus was God, believed he was saying that he was God.
Not everybody believes there are 4 phases like some speculators propose. What are the phases? 1. God creates humans to fall into sin so He can burn them in hell forever for their sins? 2. God decides it might be nice to spare some of those doomed creatures in order for them to thank Him forever for showing them mercy for no reason? 3. God has no desire to save others for the same lack of reasons because He wants them to burn, not turn? 4. God gives some of the selected elect special wisdom to be able to see how God does not have to do good because He is God and He can do anything He wants?