ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Lighthouse]

:chuckle: Good movie, back to discussion...

I suppose calling me MAD wasn't meant in a bad light :chuckle:

It was meant negatively. You appear to have lost your marbles, Tootles.

This, btw, partially answered my question. Thanks.

I disagree, but was looking for how an Open Theist understood this.

Would it then be, that God didn't know Abraham's mind but He does our's? Would that be a correct summation?

Only in that we have let Him in to know. Yet He still does not know what we do not, regarding our future decisions.

 

[Lon]

It was meant negatively.

I'm sorry. I don't believe you.

You appear to have lost your marbles, Tootles.

See, you are quoting Hook to me. You can't possibly mean that negatively....

Only in that we have let Him in to know.

As I said, we disagree but thanks for explaining this part. I was simply trying to reconcile these two ideas and this is the answer, at least post resurrection, to me. Thanks.

Yet He still does not know what we do not, regarding our future decisions.

Different day, different disagreement, different questions. Thanks.

 

[Lighthouse]

I'm sorry. I don't believe you.


See, you are quoting Hook to me. You can't possibly mean that negatively....


As I said, we disagree but thanks for explaining this part. I was simply trying to reconcile these two ideas and this is the answer, at least post resurrection, to me. Thanks.

Different day, different disagreement, different questions. Thanks.

Just because I'm quoting a movie doesn't mean I'm not being negative.

But you're welcome.

 

[Lon]

Just because I'm quoting a movie doesn't mean I'm not being negative.

Okay, okay. I'm sorry. It is like trying to yell at me while wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt. I'm easily distracted (and this isn't a topic that needs either of us in bunched shorts but really a curiosity question for how it works from an OV perspective).

But you're welcome.

 

[genuineoriginal]

My question was how God could know Abraham's mind when he didn't actually kill his son. How could God have possibly known if Abraham would have followed through according to Open View? To me, anything short of killing his son would have left me guessing unless God knew minds and hearts of man.

Apparently you just post without reading.
Here it is again.

Jeremiah 17:10 10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

 

[Desert Reign]

The mind is not some, albeit complex, machine-like thing. Or some kind of mathematical object. It's not something that, if you know enough of it, you can know it all. It makes no sense to say 'God knows our minds perfectly' as if that meant that God can predict exactly what we will do in any given situation, how we will react to the new recipe your mum is going to make for you next week. Etc. God will know how you react, when you react. So long as he finds it interesting enough to watch you. Because the mind, aka, the human being is a relational thing, a living thing. Being itself day after day, moment after moment. The question is not what can you know about it but how do you relate to it and what is its role in the world?

 

[Lon]

Apparently you just post without reading.
Here it is again.

Jeremiah 17:10 10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

No, you are just on iggy is all, can't remember why, unless it was in "Our Triune God" thread?

 

[godrulz]

Open theist question:
Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.

If God doesn't know our minds, how can He know if we are a new creation or not? How could He know if we won't rebel in heaven, like the angels did or not? (Knight's angels thread had me thinking which brought this passage to mind) How could He know if there will be no more sorrow in heaven or not?

God does know our minds in Open Theism view. Before a test, there is more than one possibility. After the test, the potential future becomes the fixed past through the present. God knows reality as it is and correctly distinguishes past/present/future (but you blur these distinctions wrongly?).

 

[godrulz]

Not well thought out, you two. First of all, OV denies omnipotence, even if neither of you do.
2nd, omnipotence requires omniscience in order to work and is why the OV denies it. If you give in on one omni- you give in to them all (not that, that would bother me in the least).

How do OT deny omnipotence? We deny that omnipotence means doing the logically impossible (making square circles). We deny that God always does all He can do (He does not always destroy people, etc.). You should also agree with this. We also do not deny omniscience, but we do differ as to what is possible vs certain future knowledge. In both views, God is not ignorant of anything logically knowable.

 

[Lighthouse]

Okay, okay. I'm sorry. It is like trying to yell at me while wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt. I'm easily distracted (and this isn't a topic that needs either of us in bunched shorts but really a curiosity question for how it works from an OV perspective).

OK

 

[bybee]

How do OT deny omnipotence? We deny that omnipotence means doing the logically impossible (making square circles). We deny that God always does all He can do (He does not always destroy people, etc.). You should also agree with this. We also do not deny omniscience, but we do differ as to what is possible vs certain future knowledge. In both views, God is not ignorant of anything logically knowable.

Agreed!
God cannot be qualified nor quantified by man's intellect. We formulate a belief system so that we may approach Deity in terms of our own understanding, and personally, I believe some aspects of faith and knowledge are simply mysteries which I accept.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, you are just on iggy is all, can't remember why, unless it was in "Our Triune God" thread?

It happened in your "Perverted" thread.

 

[Lon]

It happened in your "Perverted" thread.

Thanks for the correction and input.

 

[godrulz]

How does OT deny omnipotence? We deny that omnipotence means doing the logically impossible (making square circles). We deny that God always does all He can do (He does not always destroy people, etc.). You should also agree with this. We also do not deny omniscience, but we do differ as to what is possible vs certain future knowledge. In both views, God is not ignorant of anything logically knowable.