Z Man said:
So you believe homosexuality is a crime, and the punishment for those guilty should be death? Knight quoted a verse from Lev. to support the idea that homosexuality is a crime and punishable by death. But I showed him a law in Deut. that said disobeying your parents was also a crime punishable by death.
Therefore, according to you and Knight's logic, disobeying your parents should be a crime and stubborn children should be put to death. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, explain how it is different from the law against homosexuality.
I disagree. I will explain if our conversation proceeds to a point where such an explanation is warranted but not before. Not because I'm in the mood to be stuborn but simply because it is premature and going on what I've seen so far in this thread it would likely be a waste of time to explain it at this point.
I'm sorry. I forgot you knew everything...
Don't be a jerk Z Man. I wasn't even convinced until this evening that you weren't playing some sort of game with this. If you want to discuss this issue with me then you are going to have to do so in an intellectually honest manner. I wasn't attempting to be insulting. I'm simply stating the fact that I'm at a loss as to how to approach this with you because you seem IGNORANT of the basic principles involved. I didn't say you were stupid but ignorant, there's a difference.
I'm not a lawyer or a judge, so I can't make such conclusions. It's not my job to decide what crimes warrant what punishments. I have my own personal opinions, but I don't think they matter much in a diverse society such as ours, where everyone's liberty is promoted even when there are times I wish some peoples' liberties weren't.
I am not asking you for a commentary on the veracity or efficacy of the American legal system. I'm asking you a Biblical question.
Is it Biblical for the government punish criminals today?
If so, which crimes should be punished and why?
There are two distinctions here as well. There is man's law, and there is God's law. God's law and standards are based upon perfection and holiness, one which no man can follow or attain. We all fall short...
Man's law, however, is a much lower standard. There are people in this world who can manage to live their whole lives in compliance with man's law. They can avoid jail and being guilty of committing crimes their whole lives. This gives them the false assumption that they are 'good' people. But, according to God's law/standard, we're all guilty.
Do you believe that "man's law" as you call it, should be in total agreement with God's law?
If not, why not?
Also, are you a legal positivist? That is, do you believe that something is only a crime if it is against the law (i.e. man's law)? Or asked another way, does God's law define what is and is not a genuine crime?
If not, why not?
The Jews received the law from God and did their best to follow it, but it only proved to them, and to the whole world, that we can only fall short of the glory of God.
While I agree that they would have failed in any case, I believe it to be a gross overstatement to say that they "did their best to follow" the Law. The Jews, on the whole, hated God and took seemingly every opportunity to pervert justice.
We need a Savior. The law defined all sorts of crimes, such as eating shellfish, disobeying your parents, and even committing homosexual acts. Some crimes called for death; others were less severe. Now, according to you and Knight, homosexuals are criminals and should be put to death because the Bible says so. Thus, in the same sense, you MUST also believe that disobedient children should be killed as well.
This is not so Z Man. It is a bit more complex than that and I think you know that. In short, I don't believe that a man should be executed for disobeying his parents for basically the same reason I don't believe that people should be executed for working on the Sabbath. That's all I intend to say on that specific issue for now though. As I said, a discussion on that would be extremely premature at this point.
Again, God's law only proves that we are not perfect. If we were to enforce God's law to the t, then we would all be making sacrifices to Him daily at the temple - most of us would be stoned.
No Z Man, we wouldn't. There is a complete criminal justice system taught within the pages of the Bible. It yields justice and prosperity to the people who live under it. This argument is based on an almost total ignorance of several key issues, not the least of which is how to rightly divide the Word of Truth, but that too is light years away from where we are in this discussion. Jumping that far ahead would be like my wife beginning my daughter's second grade school lessons next fall with the Pythagorean Theorem. That's not to say that your that your at a second grade level or anything insulting at all but only to say that we have to take things one step at a time.
You can't just pick and choose which 'crimes' from God's law you would like to enforce, such as homosexuality, and which ones you choose to ignore, like eating shellfish, or stoning to death disobedient children.
Now this much you've got right! You know as well as anyone that saying it doesn't make it so. That goes for me as much as it goes for anyone else. My opinion is meaningless as is yours. What matters is what can be established by Scripture and by sound reason and that only. We do not get to pick and choose at all. All matters of belief and practice, including criminal justice, are to be strictly Biblical, wouldn't you agree?
If so, then please answer the questions I have asked.
Resting in Him,
Clete
