ARCHVE: Attention all sick pro-aborts

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Thanks for clarifying, Knight; I can never tell with "hang 'em high" types like you. For all I know you might recommend putting him to death as an object lesson, just to put the "fear of God" into people so they'll be more careful on the street.

And spare me the insults, please. It isn't like I call you names.

Oh. I forgot. These aren't insults. They're loving rebukes, delivered in an attempt to save a poor dumb atheist from eternal damnation.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Knight ]
(You really have a short term memory don't you?) Originally you were not asking me the question based on our current system.
I wasn't that time either. Since the ACM's system was the one I was asking about, I merely used the current system as an example. Hence my use of the phrase "at least in our current system" which I presumed indicated that the current system was not the one under discussion. I apologize if I was not clear.

quote]Determining murder vs. manslaughter under our current system or a righteous justice system would take looking at the case and its specific facts.[/quote] One would hope. Although I believe I presented enough facts to facilitate the discussion at hand.
Although if guilty under a righteous system the death penalty is the proper penalty for either crime (murder or manslaughter).
Finally, the answer to the question I asked!
That wasn't too hard, was it? :D

As promised, my answer to your question:
...what do you think should happen to the drunk driver who kills innocent people?
Indictment and trial by jury for manslaughter. If convicted, execution.

Now if you're willing, on to the next scenario which brings us back closer to the thread topic...
Suppose my neighbor's pregnant wife was not killed, merely injured. Due to the injuries she sustained after being hit by the drunken driver's auto, she miscarried and produced a still-birth.

Q: In this scenario, what penalty would you mete out for the drunken driver under your hypothetically "righteous" system?
What is the basis for your judgement?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Gerald
Thanks for clarifying, Knight; I can never tell with "hang 'em high" types like you. For all I know you might recommend putting him to death as an object lesson, just to put the "fear of God" into people so they'll be more careful on the street.

And spare me the insults, please. It isn't like I call you names.

Oh. I forgot. These aren't insults. They're loving rebukes, delivered in an attempt to save a poor dumb atheist from eternal damnation.
:D
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Zakath states...
Finally, the answer to the question I asked!
That wasn't too hard, was it?
Not at all, especially since this was the second time I said it!

You continue...
Indictment and trial by jury for manslaughter. If convicted, execution.
Cool! We agree!

You continue...
Now if you're willing, on to the next scenario which brings us back closer to the thread topic...
Suppose my neighbor's pregnant wife was not killed, merely injured. Due to the injuries she sustained after being hit by the drunken driver's auto, she miscarried and produced a still-birth.

Q: In this scenario, what penalty would you mete out for the drunken driver under your hypothetically "righteous" system?
What is the basis for your judgement?
The same as before! Manslaughter and swift and painful death. In this scenario the drunk killed one person instead of two. How would you answer?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Gerald
Remind me to tell you one day about why I never bother with loving, verbal rebukes...
That's a big job to remind you every day.... I am not sure I want to take on that added responsibility. ;)
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
actually, a person can be tried with two different levels of a charge. This is not double jeapardy. Double Jeapardy applies if you have already been tried once and it also provides haven so that one can not be tried at two separate trials for the same crime with different theories.

THe Jury however can be instructed to find the party guilty on different levels depending on the case that is presented.
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
calrification, new and lesser charges can not be added after the fact if they are for the same action. Any charges must be leveled at the onset. Maybe that is what you were refering to?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Knight
Zakath states...The same as before! Manslaughter and swift and painful death. In this scenario the drunk killed one person instead of two.

On what moral "absolute" would you base this opinion. Even in your bible's OT, they were more merciful:
Exo 21:22-23, "If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say. And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life."
In that case, an "accidental" miscarriage, without permanent injury to the woman, would be punished by some sort of fine ("he shall pay"). Not death.

Sounds like my ACM legal motto fits better than I thought:
"So many to execute, so little time..."

How would you answer?
Indicted and tried by jury for manslaughter. If convicted, reparations (damages) paid to the family and jail time.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
actually, a person can be tried with two different levels of a charge.
Maybe in Michigan.

But in Virginia you are charged with a single offense at a time.

If the prosecution fails to provide sufficient level of proof to convince the jury (or judge in an non-jury trial) then the jury may be instructed to decide between the charge being tried and a lesser one, at the judge's discretion.

I'm not a lawyer, but have some small experience with the legal system, having served as an expert witness and as a juror. For example, I recently sat on a jury in a drug case. The plaintiff was charged with "possession with intent to distribute". If we did not feel that the prosecution had sufficiently proved their case, we were instructed during deliberations, to consider the lesser charge of "possession" or acquittal.

However the person was charged and tried for "possession with intent", not possession.

Hope that clarifies things.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Zakath states...
In that case, an "accidental" miscarriage, without permanent injury to the woman, would be punished by some sort of fine ("he shall pay"). Not death.
"accidental miscarriage"? You never said anything about a "accidental miscarriage" you said...
Suppose my neighbor's pregnant wife was not killed, merely injured. Due to the injuries she sustained after being hit by the drunken driver's auto, she miscarried and produced a still-birth.
That is NOT an "accidental miscarriage", not if it was caused "Due to the injuries she sustained".

You continue...
Indicted and tried by jury for manslaughter. If convicted, reparations (damages) paid to the family and jail time.
Why the different judgment? In one scenario he killed two people and in the next scenario he killed one.

And furthermore.... what reparations would be made for the killed baby?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Knight
Zakath states...Why the different judgment? In one scenario he killed two people and in the next scenario he killed one.

...what reparations would be made for the killed baby?

Why do you continue to ask questions after insulting me by telling me my worldview is irrelevant. Aren't my opinions as irrelevant to you as my worldview? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't waste the Admin's valuable time with my irrelevant answers... :rolleyes:
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Zakath


Why do you continue to ask questions after insulting me by telling me my worldview is irrelevant. Aren't my opinions as irrelevant to you as my worldview? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't waste the Admin's valuable time with my irrelevant answers... :rolleyes:
Zakath, it was you who said...
As for whether they are "wrong"?, I'll leave that determination up to you religionists.
 
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firechyld

Guest
Zakath, if your so interested in the ACM (which is a FICTIONAL government contained in a FICTION writing by Bob Enyart) why don't you call him yourself. I didn't write the book!

I've actually asked repeatedly if anyone could obtain for me a copy of this document, or arrange a way for me to get for a reduced price. It really does fascinate me... unfortunately I am a poor me, and the Aussie -> US currency exchange doesn't help.

Unsurprisingly, no-one got back to me.


firechyld
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by firechyld


I've actually asked repeatedly if anyone could obtain for me a copy of this document, or arrange a way for me to get for a reduced price. It really does fascinate me... unfortunately I am a poor me, and the Aussie -> US currency exchange doesn't help.

Unsurprisingly, no-one got back to me.


firechyld
Perhaps an email to the folks at the source (www.enyart.com) might help?
 
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cirisme

Guest
Ummm, I saw this commercial when it first came out a couple months ago, but it doesn't exist on the server anymore. Does anybody have an extra copy/or a link to one?
 
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cirisme

Guest
I found it, but how can I save the movie for future viewing, I always forget how in IE. :eek:(IE's system is so weird ;))
 
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