BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale V - Paul DeYonghe vs. famousGandalf7
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
Brother Vinny
Active member
Uh-oh.
Looks like someone's being carried off the battlefield. . . .
Looks like someone's being carried off the battlefield. . . .
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
NO contest. Fg7 is asking for apologies and making statements of opinion while Paul is citing chapter and verse of heretical teaching.
me again
New member
Stop!
Stop!
Gentlemen Gentlemen Gentlemen, break it up! She dog, get away from that fire hydrant. Pilgrimagain, set the folding chair down.
Eeeeeeasy does it...
It appears that fG7 is being gentlemanly about this whole thing. We can't fault him for being a gentleman. There is no need to fight over this.
< collects folding chairs and places them into the corner of the room >
Stop!
Gentlemen Gentlemen Gentlemen, break it up! She dog, get away from that fire hydrant. Pilgrimagain, set the folding chair down.
Eeeeeeasy does it...
It appears that fG7 is being gentlemanly about this whole thing. We can't fault him for being a gentleman. There is no need to fight over this.
< collects folding chairs and places them into the corner of the room >
Sozo
New member
Attention all Battle V enthusiasts!!!
We may have an illegal move by the WOF proponents!!
me again (alias Professor Frink) a reported police officer was caught fratenizing with the opponent fG7 between rounds. And it was discovered that he had in his possession an illegal substance to increase fG7's fortitude!
The substance was apprehended, and we will have more on this story later...
We may have an illegal move by the WOF proponents!!
me again (alias Professor Frink) a reported police officer was caught fratenizing with the opponent fG7 between rounds. And it was discovered that he had in his possession an illegal substance to increase fG7's fortitude!
The substance was apprehended, and we will have more on this story later...
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Sheepdog! Whoa....
Love that "pixel whacking".
Love that "pixel whacking".
LOL - I would make that post of the day...... but.....
It may be a tad over the top.
However..... I am still laughing.
It may be a tad over the top.
However..... I am still laughing.
The answer to both is YES, but the latter applies only to the true church, not the professing one.
If we don't have the right to judge a prophet by God's Word to know if he's of God or merely speaking out of the deceit of his own heart, then God's Word is not true. But it doesn't only give us the right, but the RESPONSIBILITY to do so. We are responsible to be not deceived, for God tests us to know if we love Him with all our hearts by allowing us to be exposed to false prophets and their lies. (Deut 13:1-5)
The Bereans who searched the scriptures DAILY to see if Paul was teaching correctly were called NOBLE, not proud or rebelious, since they received the Word of God will all readiness of mind. They were RESPONSIBLE people, not believing everything they heard just because someone came in the name of a prophet, or preaching behind a pulpit.
The sad thing today is that many who prophecy correctly on one point will also in the same breath contradict themselves and make a true prophecy of none effect. (eg Calvinism) What good does it do to tell someone they need to repent and then tell them they're once saved always saved? The effect of such a hypocritical lie (1Tim 4:1,2) is to make one suppose that a mere moment's repentance reaps eternal peace and safety (1Thes 5:3; Jer 23:14-17; Jer 14:13-16),
and that they'll NEVER have to ever repent again, since they're taught OSAS,
and that God will NEVER change His mind (Deut 28:63)
or take anything away from them (Matt 13:12 and others, Matt 21:43),
and that they will always remain faithful ,
and that they are not responsible to obey the COMMAND to remain faithful or to endure to the end (Matt 10:22),
since they are taught that to think so is to believe a "works gospel" (Matt 5:14-16; James 2:14-26), as if the gospel never required any work of faith or faithfulness.
Such false teachers are "reprobate unto every good work", being abominable and disobedient (Titus 1:16), being only shallow PROFESSORS of Christ, but who don't know Him at all.
Paul is this where you met your first WoFaithers?
http://www.buyersmls.com/americantv/wacky/beverlyt.jpg
I believe they tithed big and it paid off, didn't it? I'm not sure if they had faith in their faith or faith that Jethro would make everything work out in the end.
http://www.buyersmls.com/americantv/wacky/beverlyt.jpg
I believe they tithed big and it paid off, didn't it? I'm not sure if they had faith in their faith or faith that Jethro would make everything work out in the end.
bill betzler
New member
Rapt,
I believe OSAS for the elect. There is repentance in there for when we sin since a sinner will not enter into heaven.
Are you thinking free will all the way?
I believe OSAS for the elect. There is repentance in there for when we sin since a sinner will not enter into heaven.
Are you thinking free will all the way?
servent101
New member
Re: ROUND THREE!
quote:
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You say that you're sure that I have faith in my faith in God, but faith doesn't work that way. I believe that my faith in God is real, but biblical faith has more than mere belief at its core. Agreement and trust are also involved. A person can believe the historical data surrounding Jesus Christ, and can even agree that He is the only way to the Father, but until that person trusts in Jesus Christ and places his eternal fate into His hands, the gospel hasn't done him any good. Do I believe my faith is real? Yes. Do I agree with my faith? Of course. Do I place trust in my faith? No. My faith can do nothing apart from God. Instead, I place my trust in God and His promise that I have received forgiveness for my sins.
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my comment:
I have faith in God, not in my faith in God, If I wayne for a moment and think God is not there, so what, God is greater than my faith. In fact, when we are weak, He is Strong. But to put faith in my Faith, this is a waiste of my energy, so I think anyways.
Semantics. If you had no faith in your faith, you would be a doubter, not a believer. I don't believe that faith (apart from God) is faith, but secular belief.
quote:
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I challenge you to present such a passage. My Bible "we shall be like him (1 Jo 3:2)." This speaks of a future event. Even so, how far should one take this statement? The cults take it to mean that we will become gods. I surely hope not. My Bible says, "Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, [even] they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens (Jer 10:11)." I'd dislike it very much if, after all this trevail upon the earth, I got up to heaven, became a god, and then perished.
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my comment:
Greater things shall you do than I....Jesus said that. Though we will never be able to take his death and ressurection on the cross and try to do that better.... Christ died once for all,
There are some things we can try to do better than Christ, I think we have his permission and I think God wants us to... why else would Jesus say that we will do greater things than Him, ( This guy Jesus is so neat)
1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
In addition to the fact that we are as He is in Heaven, in this world, we were healed by His stripes, we were made alive due to His taking of our death penalty and we have perfect liberty due to Him being made a prisoner on our behalf. These are the faith-sayings which the church wants to keep the believer from accepting and walking in. These types of hints are throughout the Bible, not that He made or will make us gods, but that we have what He says we can have and that we are who He says we are. When we accept the Truth and believe it more than we believe our circumstances, that is when faith takes over, and gives us the desires of our hearts. He considers us to be perfect, due to the blood of Jesus, and when we seek to draw close to Him, He begins to conform us to that image. He loves us just like we are, but He also loves us too much to leave us this way.
Now if some idiot wants to go against Rhema Bible Training Centers teachings (they teach that symptoms are real, and a doctor should be consulted) and deny that they have any symptoms (they also clearly teach that symptoms are not to be denied, but their right to stay is) then that is their own fault. I know, I have sat under enough of his sermons to have heard him repeat this one time and time again. He says everyone should have common sense, and not deny the need for a doctor.
quote:
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...the Word-Faith Movement has a shoddy track record. You might point to the size of Word-Faith churches, and to the great numbers of souls coming to Christ through them. I'd fire right back about the great numbers of people who practice Buddhism, and then pose the question as to whether the Word-Faith Christ-- he of the designer clothes, he who became a demoniac on the cross-- is worth coming to.
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I never heard that one. Heresy would be calling the Son a demon-possessed man. He became sin, but I am sure there were NO demons in Him. He became a curse because He was hung on a tree.
I have been friends with many people who attend churches started by Rhema Bible Training Center graduates, and have many friends who have been there. In fact, my cousin graduated along with Donna Douglas (Ellie-Mae Clampett actress, from the Beverly Hillbillies). Their teachings are not the least bit heretical. But, I am sure you can find obscure preachers who preach heresy, as well as I probably could for the denomination of your church. This forum is about substantial ministries, and not obvious quacks. Snake-oil will continue to sell, as long as we have a free-market system. I can think of several prechers I would personally never send a dime to, who have TV ministries, and I have never heard a one of them preach anything I would call heretical. Their ethics and character just don't reflect my Heavenly Father. Their fruit is bad, in other words.
As to the list from your opening arguments:
quote:
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[*]God has a physical body and Heaven is the planet on which He lives.
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I, for one, don't believe that. I believe that God is Spirit, and that He lives in me, as well as in millions of other Spirit-filled believers. He also sits on a Throne in Heaven, dwells in thick darkness, has a Presence in hell, and dwells with every born-again believer, who might not have asked Him to fill them with His Spirit yet, so that He could dwell IN them.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]The born-again Christian is just as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is 'just as much' anything as Jesus. He is the Chief Priest, the First Apostle, the Best Prophet, the Good Shepherd, the Greatest Evangelist, the Perfect Teacher and our Comforter. We are a portion of God, since He gave us eternal life, before the foundation of the world, when He wrote our names in His Book of Life. We were once thoughts in His Mind, before the earth was created, so, in a sense we are eternal. The breath that is in us is His. The Word in us is His Spirit. The presence of His love in our flesh gives us the grace and forgiveness to come into His Presence. We are One. The heresy of that statement is obvious only to a church which has a very small grasp of the Truth. The Lord sees us as perfect. I am no fool, I don't believe that I am perfect; but that doesn't prevent me from agreeing with His Faith in me, so that I can be conformed to the image and likeness of His Dear Son.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]God created man on terms of equality with Himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't buy that. Adam walked with Him and talked with Him, but that is not to say that he felt that He was God's EQUAL. I am sure that Adam, as well as the rest of the saints in Scriptures had their head on straight when it comes to knowing who God was and how insignificant each of us is.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]Man may make himself physically well by making positive affirmations about his health.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one I would consider to be not only heresy, but a common teaching of cults and witches covens.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]At some time during His passion, Jesus Christ became a demoniac.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my comment,
There is no such thing as a demoniac... The sooner we take partial responsibility for the condition our fellow human beings are in the sooner we will find solutions to the problems we all face. Our combined shotcomings, apathy and ignorance sometimes overwhelms someone, but technically we cannot cast the person out by labelling him/her a demoniac... Notice I included her... some people (womens libbers would be proud of me.
I believe we have dealt with this, in this post, in an earlier paragraph.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]The biggest failure in the Bible is God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God has never failed at anything. If He speaks, it comes to pass. The first thing He spoke is still proof of His LACK of failure: there is light. The rainbow is evidence of His Faithfullness, in spite of homosexuals taking it for their 'badge of courage.'
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I don't believe we have gotten anything yet, in the way of solid evidence, to show that Kenneth E. Hagin, or any other Spirit-filled minister of the Gospel is heretical. I believe that there is more evidence that his ministry is Bible-based and teaches radical faith in Christ, and not in 'self,' or in some heretical teaching which gets a group of people off into error. One thing which he is fond of saying has often taught me how to look at some things I have heard that, I believe, bordered on heresy; and that is: "Stay in the middle of the road. Don't get off too far to one side or the other, into error. A step out of love is a step in the wrong direction. Walk in love."
Obviously your moral character, and that of this forum, are beneath my standards. Here, of all places, we need to consider that many will come on this forum and put our writings under their 'microscope.' I am not a legalist, by any stretch, but I do maintain standards of moral, ethical and appearance, as any Christian should. We are to be examples not only to our children and the children of others, but to the world as well. I am glad that none of my children will ever be in YOUR Sunday school classes. Paul, I forgive you, in spite of your non-repentance; I wish you would re-consider, but even if you don't, I will never bring it up again. I was not offended, and did not take anything personal from the remark, except as it was meant, complimentary, but as I said, I belive we are to be Jesus to this world. We are the light of this world, and we need to be about showing them Him, in us.
Romans 2
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Luke 11:35
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
One last comment,,, Our Faith can make us well, We will do best to seek faith in Jesus but God still allows our faith to make us well. eg. The woman who touched Jesus's garment and this stoped the bleeding she had for twelve years, He responded " Your faith had made you well."
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say that you're sure that I have faith in my faith in God, but faith doesn't work that way. I believe that my faith in God is real, but biblical faith has more than mere belief at its core. Agreement and trust are also involved. A person can believe the historical data surrounding Jesus Christ, and can even agree that He is the only way to the Father, but until that person trusts in Jesus Christ and places his eternal fate into His hands, the gospel hasn't done him any good. Do I believe my faith is real? Yes. Do I agree with my faith? Of course. Do I place trust in my faith? No. My faith can do nothing apart from God. Instead, I place my trust in God and His promise that I have received forgiveness for my sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my comment:
I have faith in God, not in my faith in God, If I wayne for a moment and think God is not there, so what, God is greater than my faith. In fact, when we are weak, He is Strong. But to put faith in my Faith, this is a waiste of my energy, so I think anyways.
Semantics. If you had no faith in your faith, you would be a doubter, not a believer. I don't believe that faith (apart from God) is faith, but secular belief.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I challenge you to present such a passage. My Bible "we shall be like him (1 Jo 3:2)." This speaks of a future event. Even so, how far should one take this statement? The cults take it to mean that we will become gods. I surely hope not. My Bible says, "Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, [even] they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens (Jer 10:11)." I'd dislike it very much if, after all this trevail upon the earth, I got up to heaven, became a god, and then perished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my comment:
Greater things shall you do than I....Jesus said that. Though we will never be able to take his death and ressurection on the cross and try to do that better.... Christ died once for all,
There are some things we can try to do better than Christ, I think we have his permission and I think God wants us to... why else would Jesus say that we will do greater things than Him, ( This guy Jesus is so neat)
1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
In addition to the fact that we are as He is in Heaven, in this world, we were healed by His stripes, we were made alive due to His taking of our death penalty and we have perfect liberty due to Him being made a prisoner on our behalf. These are the faith-sayings which the church wants to keep the believer from accepting and walking in. These types of hints are throughout the Bible, not that He made or will make us gods, but that we have what He says we can have and that we are who He says we are. When we accept the Truth and believe it more than we believe our circumstances, that is when faith takes over, and gives us the desires of our hearts. He considers us to be perfect, due to the blood of Jesus, and when we seek to draw close to Him, He begins to conform us to that image. He loves us just like we are, but He also loves us too much to leave us this way.
Now if some idiot wants to go against Rhema Bible Training Centers teachings (they teach that symptoms are real, and a doctor should be consulted) and deny that they have any symptoms (they also clearly teach that symptoms are not to be denied, but their right to stay is) then that is their own fault. I know, I have sat under enough of his sermons to have heard him repeat this one time and time again. He says everyone should have common sense, and not deny the need for a doctor.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...the Word-Faith Movement has a shoddy track record. You might point to the size of Word-Faith churches, and to the great numbers of souls coming to Christ through them. I'd fire right back about the great numbers of people who practice Buddhism, and then pose the question as to whether the Word-Faith Christ-- he of the designer clothes, he who became a demoniac on the cross-- is worth coming to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never heard that one. Heresy would be calling the Son a demon-possessed man. He became sin, but I am sure there were NO demons in Him. He became a curse because He was hung on a tree.
I have been friends with many people who attend churches started by Rhema Bible Training Center graduates, and have many friends who have been there. In fact, my cousin graduated along with Donna Douglas (Ellie-Mae Clampett actress, from the Beverly Hillbillies). Their teachings are not the least bit heretical. But, I am sure you can find obscure preachers who preach heresy, as well as I probably could for the denomination of your church. This forum is about substantial ministries, and not obvious quacks. Snake-oil will continue to sell, as long as we have a free-market system. I can think of several prechers I would personally never send a dime to, who have TV ministries, and I have never heard a one of them preach anything I would call heretical. Their ethics and character just don't reflect my Heavenly Father. Their fruit is bad, in other words.
As to the list from your opening arguments:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]God has a physical body and Heaven is the planet on which He lives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I, for one, don't believe that. I believe that God is Spirit, and that He lives in me, as well as in millions of other Spirit-filled believers. He also sits on a Throne in Heaven, dwells in thick darkness, has a Presence in hell, and dwells with every born-again believer, who might not have asked Him to fill them with His Spirit yet, so that He could dwell IN them.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]The born-again Christian is just as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is 'just as much' anything as Jesus. He is the Chief Priest, the First Apostle, the Best Prophet, the Good Shepherd, the Greatest Evangelist, the Perfect Teacher and our Comforter. We are a portion of God, since He gave us eternal life, before the foundation of the world, when He wrote our names in His Book of Life. We were once thoughts in His Mind, before the earth was created, so, in a sense we are eternal. The breath that is in us is His. The Word in us is His Spirit. The presence of His love in our flesh gives us the grace and forgiveness to come into His Presence. We are One. The heresy of that statement is obvious only to a church which has a very small grasp of the Truth. The Lord sees us as perfect. I am no fool, I don't believe that I am perfect; but that doesn't prevent me from agreeing with His Faith in me, so that I can be conformed to the image and likeness of His Dear Son.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]God created man on terms of equality with Himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't buy that. Adam walked with Him and talked with Him, but that is not to say that he felt that He was God's EQUAL. I am sure that Adam, as well as the rest of the saints in Scriptures had their head on straight when it comes to knowing who God was and how insignificant each of us is.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]Man may make himself physically well by making positive affirmations about his health.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one I would consider to be not only heresy, but a common teaching of cults and witches covens.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]At some time during His passion, Jesus Christ became a demoniac.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my comment,
There is no such thing as a demoniac... The sooner we take partial responsibility for the condition our fellow human beings are in the sooner we will find solutions to the problems we all face. Our combined shotcomings, apathy and ignorance sometimes overwhelms someone, but technically we cannot cast the person out by labelling him/her a demoniac... Notice I included her... some people (womens libbers would be proud of me.
I believe we have dealt with this, in this post, in an earlier paragraph.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[*]The biggest failure in the Bible is God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God has never failed at anything. If He speaks, it comes to pass. The first thing He spoke is still proof of His LACK of failure: there is light. The rainbow is evidence of His Faithfullness, in spite of homosexuals taking it for their 'badge of courage.'
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I don't believe we have gotten anything yet, in the way of solid evidence, to show that Kenneth E. Hagin, or any other Spirit-filled minister of the Gospel is heretical. I believe that there is more evidence that his ministry is Bible-based and teaches radical faith in Christ, and not in 'self,' or in some heretical teaching which gets a group of people off into error. One thing which he is fond of saying has often taught me how to look at some things I have heard that, I believe, bordered on heresy; and that is: "Stay in the middle of the road. Don't get off too far to one side or the other, into error. A step out of love is a step in the wrong direction. Walk in love."
Obviously your moral character, and that of this forum, are beneath my standards. Here, of all places, we need to consider that many will come on this forum and put our writings under their 'microscope.' I am not a legalist, by any stretch, but I do maintain standards of moral, ethical and appearance, as any Christian should. We are to be examples not only to our children and the children of others, but to the world as well. I am glad that none of my children will ever be in YOUR Sunday school classes. Paul, I forgive you, in spite of your non-repentance; I wish you would re-consider, but even if you don't, I will never bring it up again. I was not offended, and did not take anything personal from the remark, except as it was meant, complimentary, but as I said, I belive we are to be Jesus to this world. We are the light of this world, and we need to be about showing them Him, in us.
Romans 2
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Luke 11:35
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
One last comment,,, Our Faith can make us well, We will do best to seek faith in Jesus but God still allows our faith to make us well. eg. The woman who touched Jesus's garment and this stoped the bleeding she had for twelve years, He responded " Your faith had made you well."
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After reading Paul's latest post in this BR, I think I have to vote for him. I will reserve my final vote for a day or so. But, I think Paul is proving his point better than fg7.
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