ECT Can a Christian ever be rejected by God because of . . .

Cross Reference

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
How so that he won't be challenged within himself and that by temptation?

The best I can do at the moment is agree that from our vantage point, testing and trial appears to require some unknown to be made known - to us, at least. But lest we lose sight of God's role in it all, what we believe about His understanding is very critical :

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Genesis 22:11-12

Did God have to learn something here?

Yes and __ no. Abraham had to have revealed to himself to what degree was his allegiance; his love "to" God existed within him __ and not just "for" God __ "to" being kinetic vs "for" being static __ the kinetic being forced upon him in the sacrifice of
Isaac..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
. . .building on it by what instructions, taught by who?
Ultimately, the answer is the Holy Spirit - but not in a vacuum. Not in isolation.

Why not? Have not many missionaries of today spent much time in isolation to learn God without benefit of outside contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
That is an opinion, to be sure. Unless "abiding", as Jesus puts it, happens instantaneously, then the whole thing is up for grabs.
Only in outright denial, I am coming to believe.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2:12-13

But all of that explains why we need a vision to sustain us.

The one who wants to be identified with Christ - once converted - will not deny him. He may well fail, but will not deny Him. Peter shows evidence of that (and even with his denial, Jesus did not cast him aside).

But that all needs to be proven by walking it out in life. Peter did demonstrate that. Even Abraham, if you want to go back a little further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
What can be the difference since being changed, as we speak of it , connotes a progressiveness.
I agree that we are being changed into His image. But the new creation itself is born instantaneously. The work is immediate, the outworking over time.

By Jesus Christ was it born ___ and only after He proved Himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
Yes, however, there can be no "resting on one's laurels". The test will most certainly, come again.
No doubt it will, but short of a radical internal change, the test will never be passed.

Jesus was tempted to be proven. What was the message do you believe He intended to convey to us?

And the success or failure experienced in any such test is proportional to one's trust in God to deliver. But unless someone has totally turned their backs on God, then there is something that will ultimately be salvaged in their lives (even if being saved "so as by fire").

So what do you suppose the cut off point might be that when reached one would become a castaway without remedy per Heb 6:4-6?

I don't believe someone truly born again will ever buckle under the pressure of too many, too difficult tests. It would reflect at least as much on the faithfulness of God as the perseverance of man.

But is that not the reason why we must pray for one another that our faith not fail us?

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I Corinthians 10:13

Yes. What was the way made for Jesus which no man, without that which He Possessed, could withstand? This is important because it is key to our success in Him.

Bear in mind that that verse is written in the context of a "take heed". If any man thinks they stand then they are, more than likely, placing undue trust in the natural man. Such a person is ripe for correction. If they are born again, the correction will work in them that which God desires. If not, it may only serve to bring forth the inevitable denial of God.

Amen.

Ironically, "if any man thinks he stands" could easily apply to the OSAS crowd. In that sense, I could see them being set up by deception - and I also now see how it is not the same as the "perseverance of the saints" doctrine.

Amen2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
Do you know any who now live their lives "unto" God?
I am not the judge of a man's life before God. I can judge fruit, certainly, but when you are talking about the difference between "for", "unto" and even "in", that requires discernment of often hidden motives. Hebrews 4:12 makes it clear, I think, that God does that with us personally but doesn't necessarily share that knowledge with others. It will eventually come out, but before it does (judge nothing before the time), it would only be a guess.

Yes. I agree.

Having said all that, if I were to look around and use what discernment I have (be it none or some), I would have to admit that I would think there are a handful I know that could be said to be living "unto" God. Could I be wrong? Yes.

Likewise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
. . . and by their death will it be solidified.
Yes. Though I would say that the death involved in taking up one's cross need not always be martyrdom. So those that truly die to self have solidified something spiritually that will only be confirmed when they die.

I believe that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
That is already here on TOL.

[Many have the indwelling. Few know that abiding is the key __ thanks to religion.
While I would agree, one cannot abide in one's own strength (in any sense of the word). Otherwise we end up holding on for dear life through the storms instead of resting in Christ. So I don't see the abiding as a challenge to remain but as a challenge to persevere in sanctification (more or less, anyway...). Continued submission. The key element in sin that destroys is pride. It is the very sin of Satan.

Abiding has everything to do with functioning in the will of God in the way that speaks of that one who is living his life in union with God __ living "unto" Him; never having to ask, "what would Jesus do"?

Thank you for this exchange. Nicolia. I wish more from others were a nice.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
crossreferences said in his Opening Question,

. . . .Can a Christian ever be rejected by God because of . . . his refusal to die to himself as exampled by Jesus?

If such a life produces thorns and thistles,

what do the scriptures say about the end of such a life that lives presumptuously

believing he will receive a crown?
------------------------------------------------

And I answered it to the letter and he does not believe what the Bible says.
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1. If you follow JESUS you are promised Rulership over the Entire Universe.
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To have a Christian refuse to die to himself is a CONTRADICTORY [ Oxymoronic ] statement.

Firstly , to be Called a Christian, you have to Be Baptised which is a form of Death and

being Buried with Christ and accepting to Obey Jesus and washing away PAST SINS

1. JESUS wont reject you if you follow him.

2. The End of such a presumptuous life is a Crown of Righteousness by following Jesus.

If you Believe God's Word which is TRUTH then you will see that my answer is True.

It was just your misunderstanding of your own opening statement.
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Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
No,

However, those who "sell the oil" the foolish ones are told to seek out?

We see both of the above within the two woman healed by Jesus..... the first one of 12 (2X6 # of man aka 2000 years of mans church) years unclean because of her "issue" and the second one of 18 (3X6# of man) years still bowed over to the earth (bondage to the flesh)

However, the first ones healed which is going on as we speak, will be the ones to lay hands on and "supply the oil" needed by the second and foolish ones who did not get it now as they could have.

All will go through tribulation and all will be washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.......... for sure no one wearing a white robe will ever get one any other way

Your post is a little obscure and strange.
 

Livelystone

New member
Your post is a little obscure and strange.

Fair enough,

I will try to make it easier for you to understand

As Jesus said the first will be last and Paul said every man in his own order, because in time every knee will bow and all will worship the Lord in spirit and in truth. There will be sentences levied for sins committed by those who still owe for them and everything else that keeps a person from living in a righteous relationship with our creator, will be taken from them as all will pass through the purifying fire before getting "into heaven".

As Paul says some will suffer loss but all will be saved by the fire (rather than most being tortured for a time period without an end as taught by 99% of the denominational churches)

By the same token not all in heaven are equal! Not only does Revelation teach us of 24 elders around the throne while others "in heaven" are so numerous they are essentially without number, but Jesus Himself teaches us there will be 30, 60, and 100 fold over-comers, with the 100 fold being in His exact image and likeness given the morning star that is the position Jesus holds, who is the one who will give them the rod of authority to rule over the nations.

The difference seen between the foolish and wise virgins is not whether one is saved while the other not, but instead who will walk into the wedding with the proper attire (covering) first and obtain a seat with the elders. The difference is seen in the oil (anointing) that the wise ones have because they have attended Tabernacles with its extra rations of oil from the first-fruit harvest of olives and also the wine from grapes representing the blood of Christ........... therfore the wise virgins at the call to come up thither for the wedding tell the foolish ones who never got farther than Pentecost "whose lamps" (lights) have gone out, "go see those who sell the oil and get what you need from them". (my paraphrase)

What we see within the two women (Christians) afflicted for different lengths of time before being healed by Jesus (who is a many membered body) is somewhat similar....... both will be healed of their infirmities but those healed first will be in a position to help their younger brothers and sisters who are trying their best at worshipping Jesus but are still bound to their flesh because of all of the earthly traditions of man being taught in todays churches that is keeping them from reaching the high calling of our profession which is Christ "our hope of glory being formed in us".

Interesting to note is the first woman healed from the issue of blood of twelve years did not just touch Jesus' garment but says specifically (in almost all cases) that it was the hem (or border) of His garment she touched that represents the law through its 613 tassels representing the 613 Laws; tied in five knots representing the five books of the Torah.

Therefore, what we are seeing in prophecy is those who grab hold of both the Holy Spirit who comes to us in the name of Jesus, and the spiritual understanding of how to use the Law properly, rather than as an administrative whip to abuse others, will become the first to be healed of all of their uncleanliness allowing them to step into the fulness of Christ before others do because they are no longer hindered by sin in their lives.

This is why Jesus says in Mat. 5 that those who learn the truth of the law and teach it to others will be called great in the Kingdom of God. I know of no other place outside of my book where the law is correctly taught....... something you can have for free if you like

The above are just Cliff notes, but before anyone reaches the fulness of the inheritance reserved for us in heaven, what is written here must be able to be understood and assimilated

Blessings to you and to yours,

Doug
 
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Livelystone

New member
I don't reply BS.

You will be held accountable for your lack of knowledge and for refusing it

You Pentecostals are all alike, you think you know it all, but the sad truth is you cannot tell your right from your left concerning the things of God.

This is why you and the rest of the Pentecost church is no longer being blessed by God seen through signs and wonders being done by Him among you. Because of all of your false doctrines, God turns His face away from you just as He did the Jews when they were disobedient
 

Cross Reference

New member
You will be held accountable for your lack of knowledge and for refusing it

You Pentecostals are all alike, you think you know it all, but the sad truth is you cannot tell your right from your left concerning the things of God.

This is why you and the rest of the Pentecost church is no longer being blessed by God seen through signs and wonders being done by Him among you. Because of all of your false doctrines, God turns His face away from you just as He did the Jews when they were disobedient

You are just spouting off more of the non-knowledge based on false assumptions you need to prop up to keep it all moving in the wrong direction .

Why don't you stop?
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
We do not have to keep our salvation, for we are sealed Ephesians 1:13

There is nothing that I can do to open that seal for it is God that placed it there.

John 10:27-29

Are we glorifying God if we err or fall short after we receive the gift of salvation? No, of course not. Yet, like most of our earthly fathers, God who is love, does not abandon us because we err or fall short of what we could have done.

I John 1:9
 

Cross Reference

New member
We do not have to keep our salvation, for we are sealed Ephesians 1:13

There is nothing that I can do to open that seal for it is God that placed it there.

John 10:27-29

Are we glorifying God if we err or fall short after we receive the gift of salvation? No, of course not. Yet, like most of our earthly fathers, God who is love, does not abandon us because we err or fall short of what we could have done.

I John 1:9

So you say the sealing by Him is unconditional, is that right? I mean, once you say the sinners prayer everything is a done deal. Is that correct?
 

Livelystone

New member
You are just spouting off more of the non-knowledge based on false assumptions you need to prop up to keep it all moving in the wrong direction .

Why don't you stop?

James says it right

You cannot show works that prove your faith because your faith is dead.

James 5: 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


Works that give evidence of true faith are works done by God that cannot be done by man

Paul agrees,

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Signs and wonders has always been what shows God's approval and the reason why you do not have any is because your faith is based on lies and half truths that are an abomination to God

The essence of faith is what you believe about God and His Holy Word that is true
 
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Livelystone

New member
Speak for yourself and get off everyone else' back with your unsupportable accusations..

I am your back because of your accusation of BS when you have nothing to support anything you try to present as being from God

On the other hand I have all the support I need and it does not matter what pentecostal church anyone goes to in this country............ they are all void of miracles despite starting with them

God does not change and had they stayed in line with God the miracles would still be happening in any church where the truth is being taught......... but the truth is not being taught, therefore miracles are thing of the past with you and all others who yield to the traditions of man
 

Livelystone

New member
"The heathen seek for signs and wonders"

Unfortunately for you signs and wonders are the litmus test and proof of those who are worshipping in truth

Is. 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Hi CR,

What is the "sinner's prayer"?

Hey mein!!

An "alter call invitation"__ "Repeat after me and you will be saved"!

Actually I do know what you mean, however, what does this have to do with blessed assurance of eternal security in Christ?

How much do you believe your free had to do with your salvation; "your decision for Christ"?

Christ's death on the cross is the done deal.

He would say that as well, if you asked Him. He could do no more than die for you and me. Now what does that have to do with you being sustained in your conversion experience?

Living our lives for Him is a daily joy.

Really?? You re a rare case if that is true for you. Even Jesus didn't have it that good. Counting all joy is by vision and insight available to us but, there is a price to pay for it __ dying to self.

We submit to His Holy Spirit with each breath.

That is a stretch if you are truly born again because the kingdom of God suffers violence; there is warfare thats place in the heavenlies that begins as soon as one is saved that life becomes a challenge.

We submit our will to His because He demands our obedience.

We are supposed to but, is that really what WE do who declare His Name? Isn't that really part and parcel of working out our salvation in fear and trembling? <I wonder why the fear and trembling part?>

I don't experience any willy, nilly, "once saved always saved" rhetoric, in the lives of those who are truly serious about their love and devotion to Jesus Christ.

I am not sure I am following you in that declaration. Can you reword it a little clarities sake?
 

revpete

New member
. . . . . . . . his refusal to die to himself as exampled by Jesus? If such a life produces thorns and thistles, what do the scriptures say about the end of such a life that lives presumptuously believing he will receive a crown?


I think your description of a Christian is flawed in the first place. If one truly has been saved then The Holy Spirit is doing an ongoing work of sanctification in his/her life and as John says: He/She who is born of God cannot sin ie wilfully and in open defiance of God. So anyone who consistently lives a life of open defiant sin and claims to be a Christian simply isn't.

Pete 👤
 
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