Discussion-One on One: Abortion (red77 vs. Turbo)

[Poly]

Debate found here.

I can't see how anybody can read this and not see that Turbo is seriously winning the debate.

When red77 admitted that "relieving suffering by causing others to suffer is wrong", he pretty much lost the debate right there. Every time he suggests that a woman has a right to to have an abortion for whatever reason he goes against what he said because he advocates relieving suffering by making another suffer.

Hypothetically speaking: If a woman's only realistic chance of survival was to eat her 2-year-old, would it be justifiable in your opinion for her to go ahead?

:think: I've heard this before but I'll answer it, initially I believe no, Besides from the fact that I doubt many people would be able to do such a thing I think a loving parent would investigate every realistic and unrealistic possibility first...

now if this led to the only chance of survival then pragmatically speaking the woman is justified, where would be the sense in both the mother and child dying if the mother had a chance to live and could do nothing to save her child?

I honestly had to read this twice just to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding. This is a pathetic and incredibly twisted thing to say. :down:

 

[Mr. 5020]

I can't see how anybody can read this and not see that Turbo is seriously winning the debate.

He has an unfair advantage.

He's right.

 

[MrRadish]

I honestly don't see your problem with a parent eating a child to as a last resort to survive. Why shouldn't they. If the child was going to die anyway, their death might as well not be in vain. Why should a life be lost simply because of someone's refusal to break the taboo of cannibalism? Pride?

 

[Mr. 5020]

I honestly don't see your problem with a parent eating a child to as a last resort to survive. Why shouldn't they. If the child was going to die anyway, their death might as well not be in vain. Why should a life be lost simply because of someone's refusal to break the taboo of cannibalism? Pride?

What if you were stuck on an island with somebody bigger than you, and they thought that your life shouldn't be lost in vain? Would you have the same opinion?

 

[Poly]

I honestly don't see your problem with a parent eating a child to as a last resort to survive. Why shouldn't they. If the child was going to die anyway, their death might as well not be in vain. Why should a life be lost simply because of someone's refusal to break the taboo of cannibalism? Pride?

lain:

 

[MrRadish]

What if you were stuck on an island with somebody bigger than you, and they thought that your life shouldn't be lost in vain? Would you have the same opinion?

If I was certainly going to die, and I couldn't eat them, then yes, I like to think I would.

 

[Mr. 5020]

If I was certainly going to die, and I couldn't eat them, then yes, I like to think I would.

You disgust me.

 

[ebenz47037]

I honestly don't see your problem with a parent eating a child to as a last resort to survive. Why shouldn't they. If the child was going to die anyway, their death might as well not be in vain. Why should a life be lost simply because of someone's refusal to break the taboo of cannibalism? Pride?

I have a major problem with it because parents are supposed to protect their children. If the child was going to die anyway, the parent should do whatever he/she can do to keep the child alive. I can't see how someone cannot have a problem with this scenario.

 

[MrRadish]

I have a major problem with it because parents are supposed to protect their children. If the child was going to die anyway, the parent should do whatever he/she can do to keep the child alive. I can't see how someone cannot have a problem with this scenario.

I don't. Part of the scenario was the that there is no way to save the child. It would invariably die, regardless of any action on the part of the parent. It was to that supposition, and that supposition only, that advocated the parent eating the child. Of course I wouldn't advocate cannibalism in any other circumstance! What do you take me for??

 

[rexlunae]

He has an unfair advantage.

He's right.

Turbo is definitely winning.

I think his advantage is that his position is internally consistent, at least as far as their discussion has gone so far. red77 seems to be taking a position that unborn babies possess the same rights as anyone else, but that there are also cases where their rights are essentially mute. This seems pretty indefensible to me.

If red77 wanted to win, he'd have to attack the premise that an unborn fetus possesses the same moral status as a young post-natal child, but I'm not sure he's prepared to do that, and it would involve a lot of backpedaling.

 

[Glenda]

I have no idea why this thread is in a religion section of a forum.

I wonder if anyone here had a dear little 11 year old daughter who was pack-raped and fallen pregnant, would they say to this poor suffering child victim:

well dear little one, I know you just suffered a heinous crime that was very painful and embarrassing, but I have decided that you will now also suffer morning sickness and regular embarrassing gyneacology check-ups and lack of ability to enjoy any more childhood activities like climbing trees with your friends (such activities endanger the pregnancy) and you will also suffer embarrassment as your body swells with pregnancy and everyone stares at you because you are pregnant at such a young age, so the shame and humiliation of a temporary event of rape will continue long-term publicly and will be obviously visible to everyone and you will suffer less sleep as the baby develops and presses on your bladder during the night and then you will suffer the trauma of painful labour and childbirth and you will breastfeed the newborn to ensure it has antibodies and for the rest of your life explain to your child and everyone else how you don't know who the father is. Yes you have suffered at the hands of vile enemies and now I'm going to ensure you suffer for the rest of your life dear child, because the welfare of your newly fertilised egg is more important to me than your welfare, so I refuse to allow you to use a drug that would expel this recently fertilized egg from your body.

Yep, I could just imagine some loving parent adopting that attitude with their traumatized dear little child victim of gang rape.

Oh, and why consider old age as another problem ... hey, who cares if some older woman is raped and falls pregnant, even if she suffers high blood pressure caused by the stress of the rape attack and often stress involved with late pregnancy causes gestational diabetes and the woman can look forward to oedema and stress related pregnancy disorders that accompany older age? Why should this rape victim matter or be specially considered? The fertilised egg is what matters most and who cares about the rape victim?

Certainly nobody here!

Expel a newly fertilised egg and NOT chop up an unborn in special circumstances? That would take more thought and compassion than blanketing all terminations under the one umbrella.

Take this personally ... what if the dear little child victim was yours????????????

 

[Stripe]

Take this personally ... what if the dear little child victim was yours????????????

I'd be a grandfather a lot sooner :thumb:

Yes, that is something good from a horrible situation. Deal with it.

 

[Glenda]

I'd be a grandfather a lot sooner :thumb:

Yes, that is something good from a horrible situation. Deal with it.

Maybe good for you but not for the victim
Your consideration is totally selfish about what is good for you and the fertilised egg

 

[Stripe]

Maybe good for you but not for the victim
Your consideration is totally selfish about what is good for you and the fertilised egg

Hmmmm .. possibly I did seem to elevate the role of a grandfather over the role of a mother. My apologies. The rewards from being a good grandfather are almost totally eclipsed by the rewards for being a good mother. I should have made that clear.

 

[Mystery]

I have no idea why this thread is in a religion section of a forum.

I wonder if anyone here had a dear little 11 year old daughter who was pack-raped and fallen pregnant, would they say to this poor suffering child victim:

well dear little one, I know you just suffered a heinous crime that was very painful and embarrassing, but I have decided that you will now also suffer morning sickness and regular embarrassing gyneacology check-ups and lack of ability to enjoy any more childhood activities like climbing trees with your friends (such activities endanger the pregnancy) and you will also suffer embarrassment as your body swells with pregnancy and everyone stares at you because you are pregnant at such a young age, so the shame and humiliation of a temporary event of rape will continue long-term publicly and will be obviously visible to everyone and you will suffer less sleep as the baby develops and presses on your bladder during the night and then you will suffer the trauma of painful labour and childbirth and you will breastfeed the newborn to ensure it has antibodies and for the rest of your life explain to your child and everyone else how you don't know who the father is. Yes you have suffered at the hands of vile enemies and now I'm going to ensure you suffer for the rest of your life dear child, because the welfare of your newly fertilised egg is more important to me than your welfare, so I refuse to allow you to use a drug that would expel this recently fertilized egg from your body.

Yep, I could just imagine some loving parent adopting that attitude with their traumatized dear little child victim of gang rape.

Oh, and why consider old age as another problem ... hey, who cares if some older woman is raped and falls pregnant, even if she suffers high blood pressure caused by the stress of the rape attack and often stress involved with late pregnancy causes gestational diabetes and the woman can look forward to oedema and stress related pregnancy disorders that accompany older age? Why should this rape victim matter or be specially considered? The fertilised egg is what matters most and who cares about the rape victim?

Certainly nobody here!

Expel a newly fertilised egg and NOT chop up an unborn in special circumstances? That would take more thought and compassion than blanketing all terminations under the one umbrella.

Take this personally ... what if the dear little child victim was yours????????????

I missed the part where and when this happened. Could you post that again, please?

 

[ebenz47037]

I don't. Part of the scenario was the that there is no way to save the child. It would invariably die, regardless of any action on the part of the parent. It was to that supposition, and that supposition only, that advocated the parent eating the child. Of course I wouldn't advocate cannibalism in any other circumstance! What do you take me for??

The thing is that I would give my life to protect that of my child.

 

[MrRadish]

The thing is that I would give my life to protect that of my child.

Indeed, as would I, but the the way I interpreted the sitatuation was that there was no way of protecting the life of the child. If the child had died but its death could sustain me for longer, I would actually view it as disrespectful not to use that opportunity.

 

[Glenda]

The thing is that I would give my life to protect that of my child.

so how would you protect your child from further pain, shame, suffering and humiliation if your child was 11 years old and fell pregnant from a pack rape?

 

[ebenz47037]

so how would you protect your child from further pain, shame, suffering and humiliation if your child was 11 years old and fell pregnant from a pack rape?

I've been raped, Glenda. And, I know all about the fear of being pregnant by my rapist. Fortunately, I didn't have to deal with something else that I found immoral because they hadn't come up with the day after pill, yet. I would get as much Christian counseling as I could find for my daughter. I would stand beside her throughout the pregnancy (she doesn't believe in abortion any more than I do). I would raise the child for her until she was an adult, and beyond if she couldn't handle having the child of the man who raped her. I would make sure that she knew that it was not her fault that these men chose to use and abuse her the way they did. I would do everything that my own mother didn't do when I was raped.

 

[Glenda]

Debate found here.

I can't see how anybody can read this and not see that Turbo is seriously winning the debate.

When red77 admitted that "relieving suffering by causing others to suffer is wrong", he pretty much lost the debate right there. Every time he suggests that a woman has a right to to have an abortion for whatever reason he goes against what he said because he advocates relieving suffering by making another suffer.




I honestly had to read this twice just to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding. This is a pathetic and incredibly twisted thing to say. :down:

Why is this thread in this forum section when 'politics' forum section is where abortion is discussed according to description of that forum?:
Politics
Current Events, Abortion, homosexuality, gun control, public schools, welfare, taxes, government etc.

The religion section of the forum doesn't seem to include such a discussion
Religion
Discuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.

Outside that, the grandstands seems to be where people can discuss what they haven't been welcomed into adding their comments to:
The Grandstands
The grandstands are where we in the "peanut gallery" can discuss the battle.