Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[oatmeal]

When I say men naturally i mean the unregenerate man, in the flesh, never born again ? Can this person seek after the True and Living God ? The answer is NO !

Scripture makes that clear, that man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-12

⁹ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
¹¹There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
¹² They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word seekth here is related to and joined with Faith here Heb 11:1,6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now the word seek here and the one in Rom 3:11 are the same greek word ekzeteo which means:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

to seek the favor of God, worship him

And believing Faith seeks after the True God. But because of our depravity by nature, we dont seek after God, nor have the ability to !

Yes they do. As many as choose not to seek God, they lose out. Those who choose to seek God if they persist, will receive to the proportion that they hunger and thirst for righteousness.

 

[beloved57]

So a spiritually dead man can read a Quran and it be sufficient to show him what it taught in it, but the same dead man can read the Bible and it won't be sufficient to show him Christ?

A spiritually dead person cant come to Christ Jn 6:44. A spiritually lost person the Gospel is hidden from them, the spiritually dead person doesnt receive the things of the Spirit of God and cant.

 

[beloved57]

Yes they do. As many as choose not to seek God, they lose out. Those who choose to seek God if they persist, will receive to the proportion that they hunger and thirst for righteousness.

The natural man doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. They dont thirst, desire God, not the True God !

 

[JudgeRightly]

The natural man doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. They dont thirst, desire God, not the True God !

So what? That doesn't mean that he cannot!

"Does not" and "Cannot" are two VERY different things.

 

[JudgeRightly]

A spiritually dead person cant come to Christ Jn 6:44.

False.

The corollary to John 6:44, which says:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John6:44&version=NKJV

Is "ANY man whom the Father draws CAN come to me!"

And we know that sharing the gospel is a way for the Father to draw all men!

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Thessalonians2:13-14&version=NKJV

A spiritually lost person the Gospel is hidden from them,

And if the gospel is revealed to them, preached to them, then it's no longer hidden, is it?

the spiritually dead person doesnt receive the things of the Spirit of God and cant.

He can if the Father calls him, John 6:44.

 

[beloved57]

So what? That doesn't mean that he cannot!

"Does not" and "Cannot" are two VERY different things.

Cannot is the foundation of the wont. Jesus says cannot come to me unless the Father draw. The will not is due to being spiritually dead to God. If a person is dead they wont seek anything.

 

[beloved57]

False.

The corollary to John 6:44, which says:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John6:44&version=NKJV

Is "ANY man whom the Father draws CAN come to me!"

And we know that sharing the gospel is a way for the Father to draw all men!

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Thessalonians2:13-14&version=NKJV



And if the gospel is revealed to them, preached to them, then it's no longer hidden, is it?



He can if the Father calls him, John 6:44.

If the Father draws him, or calls him, he has been made alive, like Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus answering the Call was after being made alive by the miracle of resurrection life being given him.

 

[oatmeal]

The natural man doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. They dont thirst, desire God, not the True God !

Evidently, Jesus Christ cannot concur with your conclusion.

Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.....

Why would he tell people to do that if it was impossible for them to do so?

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

He does not put any restriction on who that person is.

The condition is simply those who hunger and thirst.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That is certainly true for the context to which it applies, but to extrapolate that to be an absolute blanket statement for all time does not make sense. After all, did Moses seek after God? Did Jeremiah? Did Peter, Paul, Isaiah? Do you? I do.

Am I one that seeks after God?

Yes.

 

[beloved57]

Evidently, Jesus Christ cannot concur with your conclusion.

Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.....

Why would he tell people to do that if it was impossible for them to do so?

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

He does not put any restriction on who that person is.

The condition is simply those who hunger and thirst.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That is certainly true for the context to which it applies, but to extrapolate that to be an absolute blanket statement for all time does not make sense. After all, did Moses seek after God? Did Jeremiah? Did Peter, Paul, Isaiah? Do you? I do.

Am I one that seeks after God?

I am.

Jesus is talking to the already children of God in Matt 6:33, not to the natural man dead in sin. The natural man doesnt seek after God, has no desire for the True God that is

 

[JudgeRightly]

Cannot is the foundation of the wont. Jesus says cannot come to me unless the Father draw. The will not is due to being spiritually dead to God. If a person is dead they wont seek anything.

Your problem is that the verse says "does not" rather than "cannot."

Which means it's up to you to explain how you get "cannot" from it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If the Father draws him, or calls him, he has been made alive, like Lazarus from the dead.

False.

Calling someone doesn't make them alive. It simply opens the door for them to come to Christ, as John 6:44 says that no one CAN come unless the Father draws him, the corollary of which is that if the Father draws someone, he can come. Again, calling someone doesn't make them alive.

Otherwise ANYONE to whom the gospel is preached would be made alive spiritually, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, as the gospel is a vehicle for the Father to call someone.

Your beliefs are not consistent with scripture, which says that anyone who is called can come to Christ (John 6:44). It doesn't mean that he will, just that he can.

As for Lazarus, you're confusing Jesus calling Lazarus with His raising him from the dead via a miracle (the vehicle of which was Jesus' command for Lazarus to "come forth!"), and not the normal way of doing things. Lazarus still died later, as his being raised from the dead was only temporary, or did you forget that part?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus is talking to the already children of God in Matt 6:33, not to the natural man dead in sin.

False. Jesus in that passage is talking to His disciples, the Twelve AND others that were followers of His. You have to go back a chapter, and to the end of chapter 7, but Matthew 5:1-2 and 7:28 are EXPLICITLY CLEAR whom Jesus is talking to.

The natural man doesn't seek after God, has no desire for the True God that is.

Again, "does not," not "cannot."

 

[beloved57]

Your problem is that the verse says "does not" rather than "cannot."

Which means it's up to you to explain how you get "cannot" from it.

Doesnt matter, as I explained just now, the will not is due to cannot, because man is spiritually dead.

 

[beloved57]

False.

Calling someone doesn't make them alive. It simply opens the door for them to come to Christ, as John 6:44 says that no one CAN come unless the Father draws him, the corollary of which is that if the Father draws someone, he can come. Again, calling someone doesn't make them alive.

Otherwise ANYONE to whom the gospel is preached would be made alive spiritually, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, as the gospel is a vehicle for the Father to call someone.

Your beliefs are not consistent with scripture, which says that anyone who is called can come to Christ (John 6:44). It doesn't mean that he will, just that he can.

As for Lazarus, you're confusing Jesus calling Lazarus with His raising him from the dead via a miracle (the vehicle of which was Jesus' command for Lazarus to "come forth!"), and not the normal way of doing things. Lazarus still died later, as his being raised from the dead was only temporary, or did you forget that part?

No its not false. A dead person cant be drawn, they dead. Once they are made alive then they are drawn, its a spiritual attraction, Gods Love draws a man Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

This Love of God makes sinners He Loves alive Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[beloved57]

Man by nature, spiritually dead, are lost and without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Now i understand Paul here in the context is referring to the Gentiles, however and nevertheless this describes all men by nature in spiritual death, even jews.

Notice Paul writes these people were had no hope of Salvation, and they were without God. Why is that ? Paul is speaking spiritually, for even gentiles as creatures have God as a Creator, but spiritually they are without God and without hope. This describes the lost state of man by nature. To say man can naturally seek the True God contradicts this fact !

 

[JudgeRightly]

Doesnt matter,

Because you say so?

Words have meaning, B57. You can't just ignore it when it doesn't suit your paradigm of beliefs.

as I explained just now, the will not is due to cannot,

If that were true, then Christ would NOT have said what He said in John 6:44. He would have just said "man cannot come to Me because he is spiritually dead."

because man is spiritually dead.

As I explained thoroughly here (and which you continue to ignore), Spiritually dead just means separated from God. It does not mean "morally incapable":
Post in thread 'No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !' https://theologyonline.com/threads/...rist-by-their-own-freewill.48419/post-1810128

 

[beloved57]

Because you say so?

Words have meaning, B57. You can't just ignore it when it doesn't suit your paradigm of beliefs.



If that were true, then Christ would NOT have said what He said in John 6:44. He would have just said "man cannot come to Me because he is spiritually dead."



As I explained thoroughly here (and which you continue to ignore), Spiritually dead just means separated from God. It does not mean "morally incapable":
Post in thread 'No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !' https://theologyonline.com/threads/...rist-by-their-own-freewill.48419/post-1810128

Paul already established the reason why men dont seek after the True God, Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

To be under sin is to be dead in sin. So they wont seek the True God until after they are made alive.

A lion wont eat a salad for dinner because he doesnt want it, his desire, craving is for a zebra steak. He doesnt have the innate ability to desire a salad, its not his nature, so he will never desire a salad to eat

Now since man naturally is under sin and death he doesnt seek after the True God, only a supernatural act of God can change that, like a new nature.

 

[beloved57]

Friends the natural man doesnt seek the True God Rom 3:11 however he may seek a god, the god of his fleshly understanding. Man naturally doesnt want or desire the True God, he doesnt want to innately since he is an enemy of God, and his mind is enmity against God, the True God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Man naturally in his entire being is hostile and antagonistic towards the True God. Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

[marke]

When I say men naturally i mean the unregenerate man, in the flesh, never born again ? Can this person seek after the True and Living God ? The answer is NO !

Scripture makes that clear, that man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-12

⁹ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
¹¹There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
¹² They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word seekth here is related to and joined with Faith here Heb 11:1,6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now the word seek here and the one in Rom 3:11 are the same greek word ekzeteo which means:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

to seek the favor of God, worship him

And believing Faith seeks after the True God. But because of our depravity by nature, we dont seek after God, nor have the ability to !

God has put the knowledge of God in every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9.) And He has ordained that all men should seek after Him in search of finding Him. He has also commanded all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[beloved57]

God has put the knowledge of God in every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9.) And He has ordained that all men should seek after Him in search of finding Him. He has also commanded all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Man naturally doesnt seek God, and cant since naturally hes dead to God !