ECT Gifts of the Spirit

[andyc]

God does not always heal..sometimes He says no. The good news is, she prayed in the right fashion..."Lord IF it be your will, heal me".

Sometimes His will is no.
.

You won't find this in the bible. Its a cop out. Jesus has never turned anyone away.

 

[Zeke]

All diseases are nothing to God, but you have to come to place where you're persuaded by the word of God.

Go tell that to the parents at the childrens hospitals, why your kid died because you wernt persuaded enough. I get your drift though Andy its loud and clear, what guy.

Copeland horse apples.

 

[andyc]

Go tell that to the parents at the childrens hospitals, why your kid died because you wernt persuaded enough. I get your drift though Andy its loud and clear, what guy.

Copeland horse apples.

We overcome our fear of disappointment when we walk in the love of God. It's something that has to be a revelation to you when the word of God gets down in your heart. Faith gets quickened within you and you no longer care about sickness and disease. There is a rest in God where things like this no longer move you, but you have to be persuaded, and you won't be if you explain it all away with man made powerless dispensationalism.

 

[Zeke]

You forget that none of these things happen according to man's will but God's.

There are countless people that God and His servants can save from sickness or distress but few actually are (Luke 4:25-27 KJV). We have the have the Faith expressed by Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in Daniel 3:17-18 KJV. God rewards Faith but often in times of distress He is interested in our statement which follows "but if not...". Remember Christ wished relief from His own distress in the Garden but it was not granted.

The signs and wonders were for that specific time period called pentecost, while the Hope of Israel was being tasted of, they faded out with the postponement of the prophetic kingdom for this mystery age of grace.

 

[Zeke]

We overcome our fear of disappointment when we walk in the love of God. It's something that has to be revelation to you when the word of God gets down in your heart. Faith gets quickened within you and you no longer care about sickness and disease. There is a rest in God where things like this no longer move you, but you have to be persuaded, and you be if you explain it all away with man made powerless dispensationalism.

Well thats a white wash, and political nonsense when you can't back up your claims, oh spiritual one andy.

Now about reality that you are now spiritualizing all away because you have no viable proof! Where are the dead being raised, and the blind eyes opened, the sick healed etc.........? the truth is you can't find any, you have to shuck and jive your way though when confronted about it. Lets play the preterist spiritualizing game so I don't have to face reality.

Goose bumps don't count andy.

 

[Seydlitz77]

The signs and wonders were for that specific time period called pentecost, while the Hope of Israel was being tasted of, they faded out with the postponement of the prophetic kingdom for this mystery age of grace.

So what you're saying that you are not all pleading before the Throne on your daughter's behalf? What if despite medical predictions your daughter remains with you for another 5 or even 10 years? What if in the next year a new medical procedure is found that extends her life, the apocrypha does teach that God can and does operate through the medical sciences to aid His children. Would not those be signs of His divine providence towards you and your family?

You make it sound like you will only accept the possibility of God's intervention if your daughter woke up tomorrow completely cured.

:idunno:

Waiting for your clarification.

 

[graceandpeace]

You won't find this in the bible. Its a cop out. Jesus has never turned anyone away.

I don't agree..there have been times I have been healed and times I have not..and, God is not going to heal everything; we would never die...silly...and, we have the example of scripture, even Paul was not healed of that thorn...in his flesh; and, there is the case of timothy, too.

God heals..amen, not always..though, sometimes He wants us to learn something from it...and, one of the things is that, it is your time to die..and, give up the ghost.

 

[Ryan Collins]

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

First off, thank you for the reply. I want to address this Scripture first. In quoting this Scripture, are you affirming that the "perfect" is the Body of Christ? I am trying to figure out what the "perfect" is in your opinion.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

Given the context of the Isaiah passage, Paul is referring to a time when foreign invaders were coming with foreign and unknown tongues. The people perceived this to be a sign of divine judgment on Israel, a sign that they were rejected. In the same way, the Corinthian church and tongues could produce the same effect. Harmonize this Scripture with what he says previously in verse 4: "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." So not only does Paul clearly explain the possibility that, given certain circumstances, tongues could be a sign of unbelievers, but he also expresses that tongues edifies the speaker as well.

Therefore = in conclusion, tongues are not for a believer. They are for what they were in Acts 2, which is witness for the (then )coming earthly kingdom.

If the person understands you, because your tongue is spanish, and he is from Spain, then it edifies you to witness. Tongues is a translator. If you were baptised like Peter by Jesus in the upper room with power from the Holy Spirit, you would not need an interpreter.

That which is complete is the church that is the Body of Christ.

If I am following the flow of your argument, you are implying that tongues ceased after Acts 2? Is that what you are saying when referring to "that which is complete" in reference to the "perfect" from 1 Corinthians 13:10? I'm trying to understand when exactly you believe the gift of tongues ceased.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Well thats a white wash, and political nonsense when you can't back up your claims, oh spiritual one andy.

Now about reality that you are now spiritualizing all away because you have no viable proof! Where are the dead being raised, and the blind eyes opened, the sick healed etc.........? the truth is you can't find any, you have to shuck and jive your way though when confronted about it. Lets play the preterist spiritualizing game so I don't have to face reality.

Goose bumps don't count andy.

You mean YOU can't find any.

Nevertheless Gods word remains true.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

LA.

 

[graceandpeace]

After I had a powerful revelation of the love of God I went for a walk in the countryside one day and the anointing on me was so strong I wanted to worship God beyond what I was physically able. For the first time I decided to speak gibberish, and then I laughed at it, but when I went to worship in English the flood gates opened in my innermost being and a heavenly language flowed out.

Now I pray and worship in tongues all the time, its completely natural to me.

Ok.

I won't say it is not possible, but, I also see it as true languages, but whatever the case; it is the least of the gifts anyways.

 

[graceandpeace]

You mean YOU can't find any.

Nevertheless Gods word remains true.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

LA.

I agree, LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I don't agree..there have been times I have been healed and times I have not..and, God is not going to heal everything; we would never die...silly...and, we have the example of scripture, even Paul was not healed of that thorn...in his flesh; and, there is the case of timothy, too.

God heals..amen, not always..though, sometimes He wants us to learn something from it...and, one of the things is that, it is your time to die..and, give up the ghost.

I think it would be good if a lot of people gave up their ghost.

LA

 

[graceandpeace]

I think it would be good if a lot of people gave up their ghost.

LA

what do you mean?

 

[Ryan Collins]

I grew up in an AOG church, and for ten years I wanted to speak in tongues, but I refused to speak in carnal gibberish just for the heck of it. I had preachers and evangelists whack me on the head and throw their arms up in despair because I refused to perform form them. I had the attitude that if I was going to receive tongues, God would have to fill my mouth with a heavenly language. I had people telling me that I wasn't holy and dedicated enough to receive, and my pastor used to preach sermons at me from the pulpit telling me that God would not fill a dirty vessel. I know how it feels to be excluded from the tongues club, and then there were times that I questioned whether it was real or not because I felt ignored. But I clung to the word of God. This is why I put such a high value on the gift of tongues, it is such a powerful gift.

I, too, spent some time in an AoG church (though not nearly as long as you), but I had a negative experience with tongues. I almost felt "guilted" into attempting to speak in tongues (which I eagerly wanted to do) but felt that I was faking it. I was deemed an outcast from the church, essentially, and friends distanced themselves from me because I did not have enough faith to be "filled" with the Holy Spirit. Though I was run out of the church for not speaking in tongues, I still consider myself a charismatic but do not believe my gift is tongues. I do not deny the gift and do not speak negatively regarding tongues. I want to defend tongues because I feel that it affirm the cessation of tongues is in opposition to the Bible and requires a great deal of stretching.

Whether we like it or not, there will be people who abuse every aspect of Christianity, from tongues to tithes, and much much more. Do we automatically assume that everything that is abused by individuals and deemed as "fraudulent" has ceased? If so, Christianity is done for because there will always be people who fake and abuse.

 

[Zeke]

So what you're saying that you are not all pleading before the Throne on your daughter's behalf? What if despite medical predictions your daughter remains with you for another 5 or even 10 years? What if in the next year a new medical procedure is found that extends her life, the apocrypha does teach that God can and does operate through the medical sciences to aid His children. Would not those be signs of His divine providence towards you and your family?

You make it sound like you will only accept the possibility of God's intervention if your daughter woke up tomorrow completely cured.

:idunno:


Waiting for your clarification.

God could heal her, and like anyone would I have prayed for that. Medical science isn't the same kind of manifestation of healing that we are debating about. The claim is that the gifts of that period are still being manifested and facts show otherwise, speaking in tongues isn't proof of anything, and can be induced by spiritual deception.

When the dead start coming back to life, and the blind eyes opened, etc....then you have some valitiy for the claims that we are in that period still.

 

[Zeke]

You mean YOU can't find any.

Nevertheless Gods word remains true.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

LA.

Cheap words out of context, you have an address?

 

[Zeke]

Anyone attend a church where they are truly manifesting send me a private message, with the address, untill then I will let you keep pretending without me.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Ok.

I won't say it is not possible, but, I also see it as true languages, but whatever the case; it is the least of the gifts anyways.

The problem with many people's reading of 1 Corinthians 14 is that they fail to see the contrast in Paul's direction in his discourse. In 14:4-5 it says: "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification." In these verses, he is discussing personal prayer in tongues. I fully affirm that tongues is true languages, but if you do not have the gift of interpretation and are praying privately in tongues, how do you not know you are failing to speak a true, real language?

Later in the chapter, Paul speaks of tongues corporately in congregational settings and then contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophecy concerning its edification for the church. However, Paul is very clear that tongues edifies the speaker as well. This is because Paul is explaining two different settings for tongues.

Also, GaP, it is not the LEAST of the gifts. Paul says in v. 18: "I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all." Obviously Paul holds tongues with a high level of respect and did not depreciate tongues as a "lesser" gift. He then continues to discuss tongues in corporate settings. But, do not fail to see the level of importance that Paul places on speaking in tongues present in v. 18.

Also, please be aware that I myself do not speak in tongues, but I wholeheartedly believe that a day will come when I will corporately and in the presence of others and that it will be a Biblical, orderly manner with an interpretation following.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Anyone attend a church where they are truly manifesting send me a private message, with the address, untill then I will let you keep pretending without me.

This is what I do not understand. I understand if you have doubts of their validity, but I do not understand why you rule them out concretely simply because you have not experienced it. I have not experienced it, but I cannot rule something out that is Biblical. Do you have to physically experience everything before you believe in the possibility of it coming to pass? I do not mean to judge, but maybe if you were not so dismissing of it and were open to possibility, something could happen?

We are told to pursue love and desire (zeloo) spiritual gifts (1 Corinthian 14:1). Zeloo literally means to be zealous for, to burn with desire, to pursue ardently or intensely. Why not zeloo the gift of tongues? What do you have to lose?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

what do you mean?

This can be scary, for some might be close to someone like this without realizing it or even be one of them.

When some men have died in the past , the spirit which has been in their life (not their own spirit ) for so long, thinks to hang around where they lived or finds another person to inhabit.

When the witch of Endor called up Samuel, it was not Samuel himself, but God made it to speak the truth to Saul anyway. and part of that truth was that Saul would be with that spirit tomorrow, which he was because Saul is now among the dead dead.

LA.