ECT Gifts of the Spirit

[john w]

John W:



Yep, I am a child of the KING....:banana:

and, so was James...you can delete him if you wish; but Christ has him in his very care.

Nope. You "argued" along the lines of "My dear silly John W, you are not God, so you have no business in judging doctrine."

Fine. You are not God. Please hush, silly girl.

 

[graceandpeace]

Nope. You "argued" along the lines of "My dear silly John W, you are not God, so you have no business in judging doctrine."

Fine. You are not God. Please hush, silly girl.

I will judge false teaching; and I don't have to be God to do that.

You judge men; in whom Christ died..so sad.

 

[Squeaky]

TONGUES
1 Cor 12:28-31
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
1 Cor 14:1-6
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
1 Cor 14:9
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
1 Cor 14:18-19
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1 Cor 14:22-23
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
1 Cor 14:29-30
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
1 Cor 14:8
8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
1 Cor 14:10-11
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
1 Cor 14:13-17
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1 Cor 14:21
21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
1 Cor 14:23-24
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
1 Cor 14:26-28
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
1 Cor 14:31
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
1 Cor 14:40
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Cor 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Luke 6:46
46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
Heb 5:12-14
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(NKJ)
Everyone who gets into christianity starts looking for evidence within themselves of the Holy Spirit. And they should. Now there are nine milk gifts of the Spirit. And speaking in tongues is the last one. All the gifts are signs for the weak in faith. The last milk gift seems to be speaking in tongues, but it is still a gift and it is still evidence. But speaking in tongues is evidence for the individual that they have the Holy Spirit. Because the individual is weak in faith.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Uh no. Paul was telling the church to stop babbling. Quit trying to read something into the text. He is exhorting them to stop. Read very carefully.

Do you not understand that Paul was discussing the gift of tongues in correlation with his quoting of Isaiah 28:11,12? If you look at the context of the passage that Paul is quoting, you will find that you are wrong and that I am not reading something into the text, it is clearly there.

Paul never exhorts believers to stop. He tells them to desire spiritual gifts. Paul would be out of his mind to write to them to intensely desire spiritual gifts and then sentences later tell them to stop, and then sentences later tells them not to forbid speaking with tongues (v. 39). Looks to me like some more study is needed on your part...

 

[Ryan Collins]

..and, if you never do; just be aware that it is not a gift given to all..as Paul made it plain that no all speak in tongues; and not all have the same gifts, at all.

This is exactly why I do not discredit tongues nor will I ever. It may not be my gifting, but Paul says to earnestly desire all spiritual gifts and so I do so wholeheartedly though it may never come to pass.

 

[Ryan Collins]

- The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).
- The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam.10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).
- The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38;
16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).
- The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).
- According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing
are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).
- These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).
- These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12
and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.
- Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous
ground, for the antichrist will deceive the world with signs and
wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
- The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation
seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).

"Charismatics", (fill in the blank)-charlatans, refusing to rightly divide the word of truth.

Prophecy vs. Mystery

I am assuming, based on your quotation of Hebrews 2:3-4, is that the sign gifts were strictly for the apostles at the time and no one else. Is that fair to assume?

 

[Ryan Collins]

One can hunger and thirst after God and the things of God or one can mock, quench, grieve. As for me and my household...we will serve the Lord and be open, but discerning with all that He has for us.

Absolutely. :up:

 

[graceandpeace]

Do you not understand that Paul was discussing the gift of tongues in correlation with his quoting of Isaiah 28:11,12? If you look at the context of the passage that Paul is quoting, you will find that you are wrong and that I am not reading something into the text, it is clearly there.

Paul never exhorts believers to stop. He tells them to desire spiritual gifts. Paul would be out of his mind to write to them to intensely desire spiritual gifts and then sentences later tell them to stop, and then sentences later tells them not to forbid speaking with tongues (v. 39). Looks to me like some more study is needed on your part...

true

 

[graceandpeace]

This is exactly why I do not discredit tongues nor will I ever. It may not be my gifting, but Paul says to earnestly desire all spiritual gifts and so I do so wholeheartedly though it may never come to pass.

 

[Squeaky]

This is exactly why I do not discredit tongues nor will I ever. It may not be my gifting, but Paul says to earnestly desire all spiritual gifts and so I do so wholeheartedly though it may never come to pass.

I said
Not so. Paul said to desire the best gifts.

1 Cor 12:31
31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
(NKJ)

 

[Ryan Collins]

I said
Not so. Paul said to desire the best gifts.

1 Cor 12:31
31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
(NKJ)

I understand that, but Paul also said:

1 Corinthians 14:1 "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

All gifts should be intensely desired for. And quite frankly, any gift from the Holy Spirit is the "best" gift in my opinion.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Furthermore, Paul says the desire the "best" gifts right after he gets done speaking of how inferior body parts are still superior even though they are considered inferior. In 1 Corinthians 12:22-25, Paul speaks of the value of all gifts by using the human body as an example. Paul's use of the word "best" in v. 31 could be in terms of what gifts are best in certain situations and circumstances. This could also explain why Paul goes on to contrast private and public speaking in tongues.

Tongues appears last in the list of gifts that Paul says, but self-control comes last in the list of the Fruit of the Spirit...is self-control not considered a best fruit?

EDIT: In fact, the Greek word for "best" in this verse is kreitton which literally means, "more useful, more serviceable, more advantageous." Given the context, I do not think Paul is referring to other gifts being supreme over others, but rather there are gifts that are more serviceable given situations.

 

[graceandpeace]

Furthermore, Paul says the desire the "best" gifts right after he gets done speaking of how inferior body parts are still superior even though they are considered inferior. In 1 Corinthians 12:22-25, Paul speaks of the value of all gifts by using the human body as an example. Paul's use of the word "best" in v. 31 could be in terms of what gifts are best in certain situations and circumstances. This could also explain why Paul goes on to contrast private and public speaking in tongues.

Tongues appears last in the list of gifts that Paul says, but self-control comes last in the list of the Fruit of the Spirit...is self-control not considered a best fruit?

EDIT: In fact, the Greek word for "best" in this verse is kreitton which literally means, "more useful, more serviceable, more advantageous." Given the context, I do not think Paul is referring to other gifts being supreme over others, but rather there are gifts that are more serviceable given situations.

I really don't think we as humans can rate the 'works' of God....even if a gift is said to be of lesser value to men; to God they are all the same spirit.That is my take...which is exactly why He does not judge His own works that He does through His people...can you imagine God sitting and judging His own works? LOL

 

[Ryan Collins]

I really don't think we as humans can rate the 'works' of God....even if a gift is said to be of lesser value to men; to God they are all the same spirit.That is my take.

I don't think any gift is greater or lesser than the other, which is why Paul uses the body as an example in 1 Cor. 12:22-25. And yes, like you said, to God they are all the BEST gifts; there is no distinction or ranking system to God.

 

[Gurucam]

What were they for, why did the stop? Why do you think they haven't stopped.

Gift of the Spirits have never stopped. They are simply not found in traditional Christianity because traditional Christianity is not Christianity at all. It seem that traditional Christianity is simply and actually Moses-ism masquerading as Christianity and being presented as Christianity by false prophets who came in Jesus' name.

At any event, the unawares cannot access Gift of the Spirits. The unaware are dead within.

Only the chosen few, from among the many called to Christianity, can access and use their gifts of the Spirit. Only they are Christians and you will find them only few and far between.

You certainly will not find them heading large congregations or as members of large churches.

They will be among those who are discarded by traditional Christianity. Traditional Christianity is where the very great majority of people are called to Christianity. However the very great majority of these (i.e. all but the few) will be chosen, i.e. all but the few will become authentic Christians.

The great majority who are called to traditional Christianity will err because they do not know or get Truth in traditional Christianity and they will not be chosen. They will not make it.

Apparently traditional Christianity is in the hand of false prophets who came in Jesus name and they are misguiding the very great majority of people who come there seeking Truth.

The absolute great majority of people are called to Christianity in one of the many supposed Christian churches. These churches are called traditional Christianity. It is from this catchment that many are called and few chosen. It is also from this catchment that many false prophets have been coming in Jesus' name and have been misguiding many.

Sorry to be so blunt. However Truth is essentially very blunt. These are no gray areas.

 

[godrulz]

..and, if you never do; just be aware that it is not a gift given to all..as Paul made it plain that no all speak in tongues; and not all have the same gifts, at all.

The classical (biblical) Pentecostal position (which you are free to reject) is that the I Cor. 12 list relates to tongues and interpretation in the corporate worship setting. Not all speak in tongues and interpret in the church service (I have not). The other aspect in I Cor. 14 and Acts is a personal, private, devotional use of tongues. This one is intended for all believers and is the initial physical evidence of an experience (fulness) of the Spirit subsequent to and in addition to conversion. Paul encouraged all to speak in tongues and considered it important and valuable. But 'in the church' (note this phrase by way of contrast in I Cor. 14), tongues without interpretation is not of value.

Those who argue that tongues is a sign for unbelievers or Israel are proof texting one truth about it, while ignoring other equally valid church truths about it. Likewise, Acts does not teach that tongues is preaching the gospel in any sense. It is worship, prayer, declaring the wonders of God supernaturally (likewise, in the church, interpretation is supernatural, not natural interpretation by a language guy).

The bottom line is that the Bible teaches about the use and abuses of gifts, not their supposed cessation (which does not happen until Jesus closes the Church Age, not the canon).

 

[godrulz]

..and, if you never do; just be aware that it is not a gift given to all..as Paul made it plain that no all speak in tongues; and not all have the same gifts, at all.

Read it carefully, Batgirl (formerly Catwoman). Not all speak in tongues with interpretation in the corporate setting, but the precedent in Acts is that all who are filled with the Spirit spoke in personal tongues (that don't need interpretation and are devotional, private vs church setting). Private tongues are for self-edification (I Cor. 14:2-4 and speaking to God), whereas tongues/interpretation are for corporate edification.

 

[godrulz]

I agree with this, too..every denomination does this; in mho.

I know the one I attend does. I don't go there to be 'indoctrinated' into their traditions..I go for the fellowship.

The elders stand clear of me; after I had 'em in my home and explained it to them, LOL

Yet, love is the key...I told I love 'em, and that I expected the same from them...and, fellowship was my need.

I will never be a 'member' of any organized religion.

There is not a church on the face of this earth that is not in apostacy.

Hyperbole?

Yellow lights?

Are you Irish? Do you have red hair? (I have concluded you are not blond after all).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Read it carefully, Batgirl (formerly Catwoman). Not all speak in tongues with interpretation in the corporate setting, but the precedent in Acts is that all who are filled with the Spirit spoke in personal tongues (that don't need interpretation and are devotional, private vs church setting). Private tongues are for self-edification (I Cor. 14:2-4 and speaking to God), whereas tongues/interpretation are for corporate edification.

People who truly do have the Spirit in them, do not stumble over gifts of the Spirit even ones they do not have.

However in many ways you are not much different to John W.

You exclude true sons of God based on your own views which actually come from the RCC.

Thus it is you who will be rejected unless you repent.

LA.

 

[john w]

I am assuming, based on your quotation of Hebrews 2:3-4, is that the sign gifts were strictly for the apostles at the time and no one else. Is that fair to assume?

Correctamundo.

Prophecy

vs.

Mystery

Ephesians 3:9