ECT Gifts of the Spirit

[Lazy afternoon]

This is what I do not understand. I understand if you have doubts of their validity, but I do not understand why you rule them out concretely simply because you have not experienced it. I have not experienced it, but I cannot rule something out that is Biblical. Do you have to physically experience everything before you believe in the possibility of it coming to pass? I do not mean to judge, but maybe if you were not so dismissing of it and were open to possibility, something could happen?

We are told to pursue love and desire (zeloo) spiritual gifts (1 Corinthian 14:1). Zeloo literally means to be zealous for, to burn with desire, to pursue ardently or intensely. Why not zeloo the gift of tongues? What do you have to lose?

What it is with Zeke is that he stumbles over all the fakery about, and is also the way that his church keeps its members from the real thing because his church likes to own its flock and rule over their faith.



LA.

 

[Ryan Collins]

What it is with Zeke is that he stumbles over all the fakery about, and is also the way that his church keeps its members from the real thing because his church likes to own its flock and rule over their faith.



LA.

Interesting. I was in the same boat as him in regards to how my church was run and the feigned "filling" of the Spirit. But to automatically dismiss something because of how some choose to abuse it and produce artificial ecstatic experiences is something I cannot comprehend. If that is how we are to react to everything that is considered fraudulent in the Christian faith--based on how other people live it out--we would have to discredit and dismiss our entire faith because there are people who even abuse the Gospel!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Anyone attend a church where they are truly manifesting send me a private message, with the address, untill then I will let you keep pretending without me.

It is unlikely that any church of the state sees much of the gifts manifest because most are meeting under one pope or other and under another name to that of Christ and subservient to the state in form and teaching. (rev.ch 13)

LA.

 

[Seydlitz77]

God could heal her, and like anyone would I have prayed for that. Medical science isn't the same kind of manifestation of healing that we are debating about. The claim is that the gifts of that period are still being manifested and facts show otherwise, speaking in tongues isn't proof of anything, and can be induced by spiritual deception.

When the dead start coming back to life, and the blind eyes opened, etc....then you have some valitiy for the claims that we are in that period still.

So you believe God could do it but also believe there is a limitation in place and that He automatically won't?

Scriptures show that God has always been active among His people, now like all human beings the authors focused on the more extraordinary manifestations which if we actually look at the world scene likely happened only 1 in 1,000,000 times or far less. God is much more likely and even back then was much more likely to intervene through less miraculous more mundane means.

It is gladdening that you believe God can intervene and do something to aid your daughter and your family. I'm just confused as to what leads you to say/believe that He won't do something miraculous? There are billions of people in the world are you really confident in saying that God has not miraculously preserved the life of even one person today?

 

[Nick M]

You won't find this in the bible. Its a cop out. Jesus has never turned anyone away.

What it really is, the ability to lay hands on like Peter is gone, and has ceased. We are not witnessing things to come in the Kingdom. We are to witness eternal life in the Body.

 

[Nick M]

Given the context of the Isaiah passage, Paul is referring to a time when foreign invaders were coming with foreign and unknown tongues. The people perceived this to be a sign of divine judgment on Israel, a sign that they were rejected. In the same way, the Corinthian church and tongues could produce the same effect. Harmonize this Scripture with what he says previously in verse 4: "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." So not only does Paul clearly explain the possibility that, given certain circumstances, tongues could be a sign of unbelievers, but he also expresses that tongues edifies the speaker as well.

Uh no. Paul was telling the church to stop babbling. Quit trying to read something into the text. He is exhorting them to stop. Read very carefully.

 

[john w]

yup...there are still lots of spiritual vegetarians around today. Enjoy your greens

"The dead still get raised today, John W..."-andyc

Andycain is wang chungin tonight.

Carry on.

 

[john w]

poor james...having you for his judge.

"You are not God...even though, you like to think you are."-GP

Kids say the darndest things! Watch your sippy cup, silly girl.

 

[godrulz]

nope..I claim no tag' other than christian. I once agreed to EL, but I have come to the conclusion that these tags do nothing more than get a lil itchy round the neck area...(the part that holds us to Christ).

I see some abuse in the charismatic movement with the gifts of the holy spirit; tongues being one of them. (Not that I don't believe in tongues), but sometimes people fake it; just to be accepted..my brother went through that, and later told the truth.

I agree tongues was a sign for non believers..and, that God does not need it much these days..because most everyone speaks english...the universal language.

It is still being used today though, because it is used in the church I now attend; I am an American english speaking woman, living in French quarters of Quebec. The church I attend has an interpreter interpretting for me...the service into english...for it is wholly in french. This sign shows those whom would come into the congregation that God is able to preach the good news to all...no matter what language one speaks. The man that is interpretting for me is very gifted by the holy spirit to get the word across to me in the same light it is shed abroad to himself.

:wave2:

Tongues and interpretation is a supernatural thing, not natural interpretation that an atheist could do?! Mormons think it is accelerated language learning....nope. Someone please read I Cor. 14 slowly.

 

[john w]

Tongues and interpretation is a supernatural thing, not natural interpretation that an atheist could do?! Mormons think it is accelerated language learning....nope. Someone please read I Cor. 14 slowly.

Shamba Lumbo Mugoomba?

Pentecostals-charlatans.

My evidence? You.

 

[godrulz]

Uh no. Paul was telling the church to stop babbling. Quit trying to read something into the text. He is exhorting them to stop. Read very carefully.

This contradicts other verses. The worship was to be done decently and in order. Those who were babbling in a disruptive way were rebuked. Otherwise, Paul encourages and reiterates the validity of the gift for communication with God and edification.

It is sad that the Mormon is more open to the person and work of the Spirit than some Christians here (not condoning Mormonism because of their defective doctrine of God/Christology/soteriology).

 

[godrulz]

Shamba Lumbo Mugoomba?

Pentecostals-charlatans.

My evidence? You.

One can hunger and thirst after God and the things of God or one can mock, quench, grieve. As for me and my household...we will serve the Lord and be open, but discerning with all that He has for us.

 

[john w]

One can hunger and thirst after God and the things of God or one can mock, quench, grieve. As for me and my household...we will serve the Lord and be open, but discerning with all that He has for us.

"mock, quench, grieve"-over 1,000, 000 spam cliches served.

You have to be a member of the boc to serve the LORD God-that eliminates you.

Got me again with that zinger, "Charismatic" fruitcake, clown, as are all these charlatan "Back to Pentecost" snake oil salesmen.

"Studies might be helpful, since your exegesis of Scripture is weak to support a preconceived theology."

So there. I can spam like your spam cliche machine. Charlatan.

Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a "blemish in my eye"(defect in my sight). I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? After all, since you swingin' from the chandeliers, modern "charismatic" cultists(I learned that from you) are obviously more spiritual than us MAD wackos, as "All the bible is written to you for your obedience", "Back to Pentecost...Alleluia!!....Majumbo Bajama Lamma...be slain in the spirit...Receive the anointing....Amen.....Alleluia!!..", perhaps you could place your hands on your TV(or prayer cloth, or in your anointing oil, which you received from the Holy Land for $19.95), and receive a word of knowledge? Perhaps you could get me a box suite at an upcoming Benny Hinn(or is that Benny Hill?) "miracle crusade"(or is that "miracle salve" from the Andy Griffith Show, which cures the mange, and therefore possibly my vision problem?).

The big con.....

I know, I know....you are not being led by the Spirit....you are limiting God, John W.....we will pray for you.

Time to get a drink from the Holy Ghost bartender....."Praise Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus..." Can you give me a big Amen, saints, while you are emptying your wallets in my big fat collection plate?

Con artists-fleecing the sheep.

 

[john w]

- The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).
- The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam.10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).
- The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38;
16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).
- The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).
- According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing
are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).
- These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).
- These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12
and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.
- Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous
ground, for the antichrist will deceive the world with signs and
wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
- The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation
seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).

"Charismatics", (fill in the blank)-charlatans, refusing to rightly divide the word of truth.

Prophecy vs. Mystery

 

[john w]

Why do faith healers wear glasses?
Why do they need a translator when they are in a foreign country-what happened to the "gift of tongues"?

I know, I know......The LORD God does not change, my dear John W...he still uses "men of God" to perform miracles...I saw one recently.....although I have never seen someone raised from the dead, or a blind person's sight restored 100%, probably because I wear bifocals, or a limb restored, or....gotta go....that cute Benny Hinn is on, and he is going to give me my miracle today, for a tax deductible $19.95 "love" "gift!"


White suited faith healer:Sorry, but your husband's cancer came back, and killed him because he lacked the faith to keep the healing anointing I gave him...

Charlatans.

 

[graceandpeace]

I, too, spent some time in an AoG church (though not nearly as long as you), but I had a negative experience with tongues. I almost felt "guilted" into attempting to speak in tongues (which I eagerly wanted to do) but felt that I was faking it. I was deemed an outcast from the church, essentially, and friends distanced themselves from me because I did not have enough faith to be "filled" with the Holy Spirit. Though I was run out of the church for not speaking in tongues, I still consider myself a charismatic but do not believe my gift is tongues. I do not deny the gift and do not speak negatively regarding tongues. I want to defend tongues because I feel that it affirm the cessation of tongues is in opposition to the Bible and requires a great deal of stretching.

Whether we like it or not, there will be people who abuse every aspect of Christianity, from tongues to tithes, and much much more. Do we automatically assume that everything that is abused by individuals and deemed as "fraudulent" has ceased? If so, Christianity is done for because there will always be people who fake and abuse.

I agree..what needs to be understood is that the gift of tongues was not a gift given to all; but a very minor gift:

1 Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?


1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[graceandpeace]

- The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).
- The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam.10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).
- The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38;
16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).
- The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).
- According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing
are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).
- These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).
- These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12
and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.
- Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous
ground, for the antichrist will deceive the world with signs and
wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
- The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation
seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).

"Charismatics", (fill in the blank)-charlatans, refusing to rightly divide the word of truth.

Prophecy vs. Mystery

yes, this is all true; but what you fail to see is that God still uses them for those whom are weak in the faith to build them up.

Once again; you refuse to see that the law is a part of the gospel, for those whom are 'coming' in....you want to separate yourself from the very people God is trying to get saved, by the schoolmaster, and instead of using the law lawfully; you have thrown it out. Paul did not do that; nor did he teach us to.

It is a very needed 'tool' within the body of Christ.

How does your church get people built up, and saved without the law that is REestablished, to bring people to Christ?

I know why God healed me when my faith was weak. I know why He doesnt now.

I know why I don't need to speak in tongues; if it is some kind of different language.

I know why the law is good; it led me to Christ.

I know you don't love the law; for you hate it, and it shows.

 

[graceandpeace]

The problem with many people's reading of 1 Corinthians 14 is that they fail to see the contrast in Paul's direction in his discourse. In 14:4-5 it says: "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification." In these verses, he is discussing personal prayer in tongues. I fully affirm that tongues is true languages, but if you do not have the gift of interpretation and are praying privately in tongues, how do you not know you are failing to speak a true, real language?

Later in the chapter, Paul speaks of tongues corporately in congregational settings and then contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophecy concerning its edification for the church. However, Paul is very clear that tongues edifies the speaker as well. This is because Paul is explaining two different settings for tongues.

Also, GaP, it is not the LEAST of the gifts. Paul says in v. 18: "I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all." Obviously Paul holds tongues with a high level of respect and did not depreciate tongues as a "lesser" gift. He then continues to discuss tongues in corporate settings. But, do not fail to see the level of importance that Paul places on speaking in tongues present in v. 18.

Also, please be aware that I myself do not speak in tongues, but I wholeheartedly believe that a day will come when I will corporately and in the presence of others and that it will be a Biblical, orderly manner with an interpretation following.

..and, if you never do; just be aware that it is not a gift given to all..as Paul made it plain that no all speak in tongues; and not all have the same gifts, at all.

 

[graceandpeace]

What it is with Zeke is that he stumbles over all the fakery about, and is also the way that his church keeps its members from the real thing because his church likes to own its flock and rule over their faith.



LA.

I agree with this, too..every denomination does this; in mho.

I know the one I attend does. I don't go there to be 'indoctrinated' into their traditions..I go for the fellowship.

The elders stand clear of me; after I had 'em in my home and explained it to them, LOL

Yet, love is the key...I told I love 'em, and that I expected the same from them...and, fellowship was my need.

I will never be a 'member' of any organized religion.

There is not a church on the face of this earth that is not in apostacy.

 

[graceandpeace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
poor james...having you for his judge.

John W:

"You are not God...even though, you like to think you are."-GP

Kids say the darndest things! Watch your sippy cup, silly girl.

Yep, I am a child of the KING....:banana:

and, so was James...you can delete him if you wish; but Christ has him in his very care.