HisServant
New member
God's concept of justice and your concept of justice are very different.
I have a question for Calvinists...
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
God's concept of justice and your concept of justice are very different.
Please explain what God's concept of justice is and how it differed from the regular sort of justice.
How do you know is this?
Where did you learn this?
This is almost identical to the response I've gotten a few times in the past when I asked the same question to an associate pastor and a Sunday School teacher at a church I attended for a few months in Tulsa, OK.
The most important thing to point out in this response is the fact that there was no denial. Calvinists, in general, are simply not willing to deny that God has set the world on fire in order to save some some and let the rest burn.
The thrust of it is not to tell me that I've misunderstood something but to tell me that I shouldn't ask such questions.
Resting in Him,
Clete
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Take it from Paul.
You have both misunderstood something and are asking a question that shall not be asked.
Shall the thing formed say to it's maker why have you made me thus?
The answer was....... wait for it......... waaaait for it...... NAY.
Yer misunderstood idea of thinking Paul was speaking of nations is an epic fail.
The question was WHO has resisted his will, not what nation.
God does not need you or anyone else coming to rescue him.
Last edited:
Lon
Well-known member
Correct. Which verses should readily come to mind that should trouble you?
My point? It isn't a Calvinist-specific concern. It is a 'scripture-specific' concern.
There is basis. That is why, on this topic, it isn't Calvinistic, we are just the scapegoats for it. Numbers 16:30-35; 26:10? Clete's scenario actually 'did' happen.
You can help out and tell me why God 'did' destroy some in a fire yet spared others, nearly exactly as your example. :think: Your 'current contention' is that God wasn't righteous for doing so? You are 'trying' to assign that to Calvinists rather than recognizing it isn't Calvinist, it is scripture. :think:
Both. 1) that you don't seem to realize your scenario 'did' happen.
and 2) that you really shouldn't throw the gauntlet without realizing you are throwing it at God's doorstep. I'm just reading it and believing it. You are reading, perhaps not realizing it actually did happen, and 'trying' to make it Calvinistic rather than the actual scripture passage.
Perhaps...realize that believing that scripture happened, doesn't make me a Calvinist, it makes me a bible-reader and bible-believer.
Read Numbers 16:30-35. It isn't a 'Calvinist' passage for you to be able to throw accusation. It is in an Open Theist's bible too, that the gauntlet is thrown at God's feet regarding Number AND a good many other passages of God's judgement. Another that readily comes to mind is Lot's family. They were the ONLY ones saved from that fire, right? :think:
Numbers 26:10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, when the fire devoured 250 men, and they became a warning.
Numbers 26:11 But the sons of Korah did not die
So you are correct. I cannot deny it as a bible-believer and a Calvinist. It is right in front of me, and now you, if not before. It is a 'bible-believer' specific topic, not a Calvinist one. That you are Open Theist and I am Calvinist is incidental imho. IOW it becomes an accusation against God very God, not me.
In Him,
-Lon
Last edited:
This is an antinomy much like the Triunity of God is not fully explainable too is an antinomy
I think you mean "not the fact that sin happens that makes God unjust"
That is not a quality conclusion bro.
Where Calvin went wrong (one place) is saying that God predestines some to hell. That's not biblically provable.
But the fact is that all humanity is born dead to God and already judged, already condemned and headed for hell. That is biblically provable. Indeed man must first believe before salvation occurs and the death of Messiah rendered every man savable. Why some aren't saved? Because they were passed over. Why are the elect saved? By grace.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
:thumb:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I wasn't sure if you were or not. That's why I said "If you're a Calvinist".
Says who?
What sort of foolish thing is that to say?!
Has the whole Christian world forgotten that God is just?
Oh wait, let me take a breath!
Are you a Christian?
I can! So can my children as can virtually all human beings over the age of three.
Well I can! Who couldn't?
Obviously not you! You are willing to fall down in worship of a God who sends babies to hell!
How stupid does that make you?!
My bible tells me that I've been created in the image and likeness of God and that I have the mind of Christ.
What bible are you reading?
The bible you refer to proclaims that the unsaved are without excuse with or without the bible because the creation itself testifies of the truth of God.
So if you're not a Calvinist what are you, a Catholic?
No one is punished for the sins of their father. The word of God that you referred to says so very clearly. It is your doctrine that says otherwise.
I agree that is makes no sense if that what you mean.
Your belief is that God is unjust. Your belief is blasphemy. Your belief is irrational stupidity and is therefore false.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Last edited:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Awesome post, Clete. :first:
lukecash12
New member
The silence is deafening.
Yes! When you see of post of mine with a lot of weird typos, it means that I made the post from my iphone. There's no telling what the auto-correct is going to type for you.
Sorry!
I agree with you completely about Calvin. I'm not sure what you mean about my conclusion not being quality.
That is just very simply not so. GOD IS JUST!!!!
Ezekiel 18:18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
That's passage you never knew existed!
Read that whole chapter!
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If you're going to be consistent then if you ignore the words in blue, which is necessary to maintain a belief in condemnation of a single soul due to "original sin" then you'd have to accept universalism!
The correct understanding is very simple. Christ's death undid whatever effect Adam's sin had on mankind and did so JUSTLY!
Justice, by the way, is the WHOLE POINT of the crucifixion! If God is permitted to be unjust, as you Calvinists believe, then what the hell was the point of the cross? If justice is whatever God happens to say it is then why doesn't He just declare everyone (or whatever group He wants) righteous and move on? Where is the need for God the Son to die? Where is the need?
That is a question that not one single Calvinist has ever attempted to answer in my presence. They don't know and will not even venture a guess. They'll wave their hands in the air and rip their clothing in protest and call me a heretic for even asking the question but will not deny that their concept of God is incompatible with any understanding of justice that can be communicated in human language.
This is the same Calvinist nonsense that my opening post illustrates!
You need to start over. Calvinism is wrong from beginning to end - all of it. They worship the wrong God, venerate the wrong Jesus and preach the wrong gospel.
Start with that as your starting point presupposition and begin reading the bible from scratch. Take the bible for what it SEEMS to say. If you get confused about a particular passage, ask a random third grader what it means. He will get it right about 99% of the time because kids that young haven't figured out yet that the bible doesn't mean what it says.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Cedarbay
New member
What do you mean by this?
It seems like every time I bring up the word "antinomy" someone brings up the Trinity.
The doctrine of the Trinity not an antinomy, at least not if you stick with what the bible says and leave weird Augustinian nonsense out of it.
Before I continue, however, let me just point out, for the sake of clarity, that words often have a wide sphere of meaning and that antinomy is no exception. I do not deny that the term could be used in reference to the Trinity doctrine, but only as a sort of figure of speech. If you are talking about antinomy in the sense of some topic that seems confusing to a lot of people and that the bible doesn't give a lot of detail about then, in that sense, the word fits. But generally, the word antinomy isn't used in such a loose manner. Typically, when you see the word used, its being used in theological text book or formal publication where the audience is mostly seminary students or graduates. In such cases, the term NEVER applies to the doctrine of the Trinity unless the doctrine goes beyond the biblical material.
Now, having said all that, the doctrine of the Trinity IS NOT self-contradictory! It's not even a paradox! It is therefore, NOT and antinomy.
The confusion happens because people misunderstand both the doctrine of the Trinity and the definition of what a contradiction is. Let's start with the later...
The law of contradiction states that two contradictory truth claims cannot both be true at the same time and in the same way (i.e. in the same context).
Now with that firmly in mind...
Truth claim 1: The bible teaches that there is one God. This is undisputed and indisputable.
Truth claim 2: The bible teaches that God (singular) exists as three persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
As they sit, those two truth claims do not contradict one another. Truth claim 1 has to do with how many God's exist, truth claim 2 has to do with the nature of that God.
In other words, the bible does not teach that God is Unitarian and Trinitarian in nature. If it did, that would be a contradiction and you'd definitely have to pull out the antinomy card or ditch the whole religion.
Which, by the way, is the only thing the antinomy card is good for - salvaging the whole system. It's the 'get out the land of the rational' card. It's the "I really want to believe this whether it makes any sense or not" card.
It does not apply to the Trinity - period.
Resting in Him,
Clete
MY FAVORITE QUESTION!!!
Hebrews 9:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest,
It's much more than a simple reference to that verse though!
A full explanation is HERE!
That link is to chapter 15 of Principles of Spiritual Growth by Miles J. Stanford. If you read that and chapter 16 (both of which are quite short) you'll get it.
I encourage you to read the whole book. It's in my top 10 list.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I rest my case. Again, this is the central issue for "Christians" if it is fair for infants to die lost isn't it. What I see in many is a failure to accept the fact that God's word is silent concerning infant salvation and on top of this many go out on a limb and presuppose that God would somehow be unjust in not saving all infants. Not me. I can fully trust that God will do right. He does all things well.
My problem with us is not that we choose to think that all infants will get a pass and be saved. My problem is that most choose to foolishly state an ultimatum on God claiming He would be unjust not to save.
God can never be unjust.
Neither can He contradict His word.
If faith is required for accepting the gospel then infants cannot be saved since they cannot excercise faith.
They can and do die and that is biblically due to their inheritance of sin. So whereas I would love to believe all infants are given a free ride into eternity this is not supported by soteriology and isn't biblically provable.
So where is your fire house argument now? If you cannot prove infant salvation then you cannot prove God is being unjust in what Calvin taught concerning total depravity and election.
Just my take.
FINALLY A RATIONAL RESPONSE!!!!!!!
The answer is simple. Paul is referencing Jeremiah 18. Jeremiah is talking about nations, Paul applies the principle taught in Jeremiah 18 to the nation of Israel.
That, by the way, is NOT my opinion. Read it. Both authors are talking about nations - period.
You can (and will) deny that if you like but the alternative that you'll be arguing in favor of is that God is unjust.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Last edited: