ECT I see a distinction between initial salvation and the New Birth.

[JosephR]

Neither are you, so what sets us apart is your inability to recognize the matter of your presumptive conclusions that speak volumes about your reasoning powers.

no, you actually have no idea...and thats ok,, you shouldnt...the only reason I do. is because... i am ashamed to say... a thief knows a thief..

 

[Cross Reference]

no, you actually have no idea...and thats ok,, you shouldnt...the only reason I do. is because... i am ashamed to say... a thief knows a thief..

<ignore list addition coming up>

 

[JosephR]

<ignore list addition coming up>

:cheers:

 

[Aimiel]

I see a distinction between initial salvation and the New Birth.

Have you consulted with a Psychologist, to see if you need anti-delusion medication?

Just kidding. There is no distinction, other than the fact that one need to 'work out' their salvation after one is saved. That is, one needs to bring one's flesh into line with God's Word. We need to learn where we're missing it and keep aiming higher so that we are pleasing to God in our Christian growth walk. One is always maturing in Christ, until one walks with God, as Enoch did.

One is saved by faith in Christ. At that point one is born again (New Birth). One doesn't need 'works' to be saved or to be born again. Works are due to Christ's Presence, not required. We do good because The One Who now lives in us is good, not because we want Him to approve of us. The ONLY reason that God will approve of anyone is Christ's Blood. Our New Birth takes place upon our salvation. Walking out what that means in your day-to-day life is a different story. It is a measure of your reward. Those who do nothing will get nothing. Those who win souls and do God's Will in their life and mature in Christ will see the results in Heaven. There are degrees of reward just like there are degrees of punishment.

 

[Word based mystic]

So any comments or scriptural validity on this comment below.

Does salvation infer the moment of actualizing freedom from sin and death. pointing to after resurrection.

Being born again assures salvation because of the work Christ did.
But the actual and total freedom from and overcoming of sin and death is actually after resurrection.

thanks for any comments
specifically pointed to cross reference and aimiel

 

[Aimiel]

Does salvation infer the moment of actualizing freedom from sin and death. pointing to after resurrection. Being born again assures salvation because of the work Christ did. But the actual and total freedom from and overcoming of sin and death is actually after resurrection.

We don't have to die. That is the good news in a nutshell. We have God's favor, in this life. As He is: so are we... in this world. We hold the keys to His victory over hell, death and the grave. We're not waiting for permission or for God to say or do anything. He is waiting for us to realize who we are and what we have. We have power and authority over ALL the power of the enemy. We don't have to wait for anything to enforce that victory. We only have to get out of the 'boat' of religion and get out onto the water, by faith, so that we can walk with Christ and enforce His victory in the lives of those whom God wants us to minister to. That would be: everyone.

 

[Word based mystic]

summary

summary

We don't have to die. That is the good news in a nutshell. We have God's favor, in this life. As He is: so are we... in this world. We hold the keys to His victory over hell, death and the grave. We're not waiting for permission or for God to say or do anything. He is waiting for us to realize who we are and what we have. We have power and authority over ALL the power of the enemy. We don't have to wait for anything to enforce that victory. We only have to get out of the 'boat' of religion and get out onto the water, by faith, so that we can walk with Christ and enforce His victory in the lives of those whom God wants us to minister to. That would be: everyone.

nice summary. I agree with it all.

was just curios if the salvation definition was reflective of the (fullness) of overcoming and the destruction of death and sin at resurrection.

the below scripture is very much for our present overcoming reality and possibility, even unto the filling of ALL of the FULLNESS of GOD.
inheritance access now and also in the age to come.

ephesians 3:16-19 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the [a]saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

 

[Cross Reference]

Have you consulted with a Psychologist, to see if you need anti-delusion medication?

Just kidding. There is no distinction, other than the fact that one need to 'work out' their salvation after one is saved. That is, one needs to bring one's flesh into line with God's Word. We need to learn where we're missing it and keep aiming higher so that we are pleasing to God in our Christian growth walk. One is always maturing in Christ, until one walks with God, as Enoch did.

Don't you find it interesting that Enoch wasn't born again?

One is saved by faith in Christ. At that point one is born again (New Birth). One doesn't need 'works' to be saved or to be born again. Works are due to Christ's Presence, not required. We do good because The One Who now lives in us is good, not because we want Him to approve of us. The ONLY reason that God will approve of anyone is Christ's Blood. Our New Birth takes place upon our salvation. Walking out what that means in your day-to-day life is a different story. It is a measure of your reward. Those who do nothing will get nothing. Those who win souls and do God's Will in their life and mature in Christ will see the results in Heaven. There are degrees of reward just like there are degrees of punishment.

Interesting this as well. We choose Christ and assume we are born again without regard to knowing whether or not He has chosen us. What proof do you believe one should present from himself that testifies of Jesus choosing them? Paul declared he lived by the faith OF Son of God __ not his faith in faith.

Side question: Why the need to be born again for salvation?

Were not the disciples saved before they were born again?

 

[Aimiel]

When God brings the next great revival (guess what? it's already started) we will see the fulfillment of this: the greatest of all prophecies...

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 'till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Word based mystic]

was enoch and elijah reflective of the 2 witnesses. One of intimate relationship the other of prophetic/agreement power.

I know there are other views of the 2 witnesses being the church and Christ.

all the prophets of old were not born again yet. and were waiting to see the day of Christ so they could enter into Christ fully.

Lets hear what you think

was elijah and enoch held in the bosom of abraham or were they in eden.

Could they have been born again through faith by reaching through time and accessing the promise before their time.
Or is hebrews 11:39 including them as well. "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."

 

[Cross Reference]

When God brings the next great revival (guess what? it's already started) we will see the fulfillment of this: the greatest of all prophecies...

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 'till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I doubt if it will be a rival. I mean, why revive what didn't work the first time? Not only that, but, God doesn't send revival __ He sends Himself.

 

[Aimiel]

Don't you find it interesting that Enoch wasn't born again?

Not at all. He was walking in what Jesus brought with His sacrifice: complete relationship with The Living God, just like what Adam and Eve had in the garden. He did so due to walking in the Perfect Law of Love. God IS Love and those who know Him grow every single day in their love for Him and for their brethren. Enoch walked with God due to loving God. He was shown things that no other prophet can be shown, due to His close love-walk with The Lord. The funny thing is: we can have the same walk (or better). We can walk just as close to God as we are able to believe Him for. Jesus makes it possible.

Interesting this as well. We choose Christ and assume we are born again without regard to knowing whether or not He has chosen us. What proof do you believe one should present from himself that testifies of Jesus choosing them?

We can spend all day giving the reasons for the hope that is in us, but, we only have to satisfy ourselves that we are His. He gave us a conscience and His Presence in us is not just our assurance but He (The Holy Spirit) is also our Comforter, Helper and Teacher.

Side question: Why the need to be born again for salvation?

We are saved due to faith in Christ and that: not of ourselves, it (our faith in Him) is the gift of God. It's His Faith. It's Him giving us the ability to believe in Him. It's all Him. We are merely witnesses of His Goodness. We don't have to be saved to be born again OR born again to be saved. They are the same thing: faith in Christ. His Blood and our testimony is what is able to put down ALL the works of the enemy. Sickness, disease, death... every single work of Satan is destroyed by who we are in Christ: redeemed.

Were not the disciples saved before they were born again?

No. There was no salvation available yet. There was preaching of it, but the finished work on Calvary was what made the door to Heaven swing wide open. God accepts us as we are: sinners. Believing in Christ is good but the application of The Blood requires that blood be spilled. Before Calvary, It wasn't offered yet.

Another side note: I believe that the New Covenant was cut in Gethsemane. Jesus signed It in His Blood as He prayed: "... nevertheless, not My will but THY Will be done." The payment of His life on Calvary was just that: payment of our sins. He had already promised everything He had (His very Life) and signed the contract with His own Blood as He prayed against the forces of hell, the world and even His Own Flesh... His blood pressure was so high as He resisted the temptation to refuse the cross that His capillaries couldn't contain the pressure. I believe it was the hardest thing any human has ever done.

One more side note: I believe that He felt the pain and physical consequences of every single sin that will ever be committed as He hung on the cross. He looked forward (prophetically) to the end of the age when ALL of The Body of Christ is with Him in Heaven for encouragement and saw that it was worth it. It was only the fact that He was hung upon a tree that enabled Death to take Him. Had He been put to death any other way there would not have been a curse upon Him; the fact that God said that anyone who is hanged upon a tree is cursed allowed Death to take Him. The fact that the wages of sin is: death, was enough to kill anyone who has sinned, but it couldn't do that to Him, since He had never sinned, but He was nailed to a tree, which gave Death the go-ahead to take Him. Right then, Satan thought that he had won. :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

I doubt if it will be a rival. I mean, why revive what didn't work the first time? Not only that, but, God doesn't send revival __ He sends Himself.

His Body was zealous at Pentecost. They did great works for Him and many movements of His Spirit have done even greater, since. God is in the revival business. The Body of Christ is dead (for the most part) in this day and age, in the western world, anyway. God is going around speaking to dry, dead religious bones: "Live!" In the last days we will see Jesus' Words fulfilled:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[Word based mystic]

great summary.


still on this

We don't have to be saved to be born again OR born again to be saved. They are the same thing: faith in Christ. His Blood and our testimony is what is able to put down ALL the works of the enemy. Sickness, disease, death... every single work of Satan is destroyed by who we are in Christ: redeemed.No. There was no salvation available yet. There was preaching of it, but the finished work on Calvary was what made the door to Heaven swing wide open. God accepts us as we are: sinners. Believing in Christ is good but the application of The Blood requires that blood be spilled. Before Calvary, It wasn't offered yet.

Why differentiate between the 2. being born again and salvation.
why mention entering into the kingdom or seeing the kingdom unless you are born again

I rarely find two different words to be one theme or definition. Usually in scripture there is a reason for different wording.

 

[Aimiel]

One is born again, given a new spirit (sinless) and The Holy Spirit enters the believer upon salvation. It is the reason that Heaven rejoices. God inhabits that person and Satan cannot be in God's Presence. The old is passed away. All things become new. You have a soft heart towards God and towards your fellow man. You fall in love with every true believer in Christ. You follow Christ. You obey Him. You look for ways to make Him happy. It isn't you, it is Christ IN you that does this. You're no longer the only or main occupant of your flesh. God is. The Almighty God lives in you. He holds ALL Power and Authority in Heaven and in earth and He resides in your flesh. He eats with you. He walks with you. He talks with you. You need to eat FRESH Manna from Heaven every day to survive. You fulfill His Perfect Law of Love by seeking out those who are lost and giving them the chance to believe His Gospel. The next thing to happen is: we fulfill His Instructions: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," we will be taken home to be with Him.

 

[Cross Reference]

One is born again, given a new spirit (sinless) and The Holy Spirit enters the believer upon salvation. It is the reason that Heaven rejoices. God inhabits that person and Satan cannot be in God's Presence. The old is passed away. All things become new. You have a soft heart towards God and towards your fellow man. You fall in love with every true believer in Christ. You follow Christ. You obey Him. You look for ways to make Him happy. It isn't you, it is Christ IN you that does this. You're no longer the only or main occupant of your flesh. God is. The Almighty God lives in you. He holds ALL Power and Authority in Heaven and in earth and He resides in your flesh. He eats with you. He walks with you. He talks with you. You need to eat FRESH Manna from Heaven every day to survive. You fulfill His Perfect Law of Love by seeking out those who are lost and giving them the chance to believe His Gospel. The next thing to happen is: we fulfill His Instructions: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," we will be taken home to be with Him.

You cannot be talking about most so-called, "Christians". The ones you speak of who turned the world upside down?

 

[Cross Reference]

was enoch and elijah reflective of the 2 witnesses. One of intimate relationship the other of prophetic/agreement power.

I know there are other views of the 2 witnesses being the church and Christ.

all the prophets of old were not born again yet. and were waiting to see the day of Christ so they could enter into Christ fully.

Lets hear what you think

was elijah and enoch held in the bosom of abraham or were they in eden.

Could they have been born again through faith by reaching through time and accessing the promise before their time.
Or is hebrews 11:39 including them as well. "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."

"It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment". That was/is a decree of God and cannot be altered. We can only conjecture where those two resided after their removal from the Earth. But, I believe it is safe to assume they are the two witnesses.

Enoch and Elijah, never died.

They will. I believe they must. We know they were not of the order of Melchisedek.

 

[Cross Reference]

We don't have to be saved to be born again OR born again to be saved. They are the same thing: faith in Christ. His Blood and our testimony is what is able to put down ALL the works of the enemy. Sickness, disease, death... every single work of Satan is destroyed by who we are in Christ: redeemed.No. There was no salvation available yet. There was preaching of it, but the finished work on Calvary was what made the door to Heaven swing wide open. God accepts us as we are: sinners. Believing in Christ is good but the application of The Blood requires that blood be spilled. Before Calvary, It wasn't offered yet.

The disciples were not saved until Jesus shed His blood. No one could be, saint or sinner, and that is not arguable. Saved meaning, reconciled to God. Rom. 5:1 KJV. Jesus "set the captives free": "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."2 Corinthians 5:6-10 (ESV)

Though the new birth is not required for salvation we must see that God, by His "so great salvation", does not want us to remain sinners and has provided the way on Earth for us to be rectified before our death; departure from Earth. We are to be seeking Him with a fulfillment designed to be contagious and we must long for it to happen within us who claim the new birth. The violent in this knowledge will accomplish it. It will be the evidence that we are His. We were sinners but now are saints learning how to be faithful in Christ. cf Eph 1:1 KJV with the fulfillment being this from Paul: Gal 2:20 KJV. and John: John 1:12 KJV

Why differentiate between the 2. being born again and salvation.
why mention entering into the kingdom or seeing the kingdom unless you are born again

Because the one speaks of something far greater in Christ God has prepared for those who love Him for Himself and "the violent in Him will take by force". I believe this is the only reason for the new birth and the BIG reason for satanic warfare, temptations, trials, testings, dying to self and otherwise overcoming of our fleshly lusts i.e., the sifting out of the hearts of men for the sole purpose of "bringing many sons unto glory" made possible by the obedience of Jesus Christ and His shed Blood..

I rarely find two different words to be one theme or definition. Usually in scripture there is a reason for different wording.

But the overall message remains the same, amen? __ unless the modern text is taken as being "the message". Then the whole thing is up for grabs.

 

[Cross Reference]

Not at all. He was walking in what Jesus brought with His sacrifice: complete relationship with The Living God, just like what Adam and Eve had in the garden. He did so due to walking in the Perfect Law of Love.:

Obviously, you believe Enoch performed something "perfect" from himself totally impossible for others to perform and he did so without being born again.

 

[Cross Reference]

was enoch and elijah reflective of the 2 witnesses. One of intimate relationship the other of prophetic/agreement power.

I know there are other views of the 2 witnesses being the church and Christ.

all the prophets of old were not born again yet. and were waiting to see the day of Christ so they could enter into Christ fully.

Lets hear what you think

was elijah and enoch held in the bosom of abraham or were they in eden.

Could they have been born again through faith by reaching through time and accessing the promise before their time.
Or is hebrews 11:39 including them as well. "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."

Apart from what has 'been provided' us, they could not be made perfect." Now they have it as well.

Don't you find it the least bit interesting that the OT saints lived their lives unto God without being born again?