ECT If MAD is False What Does Hebrews 6:4-6 Mean for Us?

[jamie]

That's correct. Churchianity thinks that they are "graft in" to Israel or need to be (or are "spiritual Israel").

Who would say something like that?

 

[Crucible]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
-Hebrews 6:4-6

It's a very Calvinist passage.

God cannot be mocked, you see (Gal 6:7),
and so a person cannot be saved and then fall away (Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

 

[Lighthouse]

It means what it says :doh:

So salvation can be lost and once that happens a person is lost forever?

Water baptism being "out" is a direct conflict to Jesus' command in Matthew 28:18

These are the types of contradictions that make me very wary of MAD. It seems that they value the apostles word over Jesus'.

Unless Jesus is the One who commanded it be out? Like He changed the rules on circumcision or food, for instance.

Because, really, there is nothing inherently moral or righteous about baptism in and of itself.

Paul saying that he himself was not sent during that specific time (or at all for that matter) to baptize does not at all in any way shape or form discount water baptism...

But the question does rise: why were the 12 apostles to the 12 tribes of Israel commanded to baptize, and yet Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was not?

I value the greater context of the passage.
In which a woman begs for Jesus to heal her daughter.
The disciples, in frustration, asking Jesus to have her depart form them.
To which Jesus replies, with your pulled half-hazardly *haphazardly out of context verse, - Matthew 15:24

Jesus does not reject her, but grants her plea.
Did he not heal the daughter in Matthew 15:28 ?

This, is my primary issue with MAD.
I've never had a conversation where a verse or set of verses
wasn't pulled poorly from the greater context (historical, audience)
and asserted to be able to stand on it's own.
There is no single verse that should, or can, stand alone.
Context always matters.

I hope you do not take offense, none of this is meant to offend,
but rather just the voicing of my own exegetical adventures through scripture.

1. Jesus healed her daughter in spite of the fact He was not sent to her people. He did so because her faith was so strong, even in the face of being called a dog, by Jesus, by the way. That's right, Jesus did reject her, at first. She kept coming. Her faith was persistent, and so was she. That is why He granted her request.
2. In post 4841598 you used a single verse out of context.

How is that at all 'obviously Christ'?

If it's not then Paul was a fraud.

Does Paul explain that from a revelation?
Your essentially given Paul absolute authority to change doctrine, to make void
that which Jesus commands, on the assumption that Paul received
divine revelation on the matter. I'm not willing to disobey Jesus based on an assumption.

:doh:

What he said was that Paul saying that he [Paul] was not sent to baptize was obviously in reference to what Christ did and did not send Paul to do.

Beyond that, If he did receive revelation of that, it still wouldn't change a command
of Jesus. Many are called or "sent" out into the world for different things.
It does not make void any command of Jesus, at all, ever.

But it would mean that the command of baptism wasn't to all, and therefore you are assuming it is to you. So, can you support that assumption?

But what is directed to all, is directed to all.
Which is where you've derailed.

Not in the least. In fact, we even recognize that some things directed to specific people are applicable to others.

For instance, as we've shown, Jesus was sent to Israel and not the Gentiles in His time on Earth. But many of the things He said in ministering to them are applicable to the Body of Christ in this present dispensation. While others are not.

Yup. All means all, my friend.
Jesus didn't have a speech impediment, He was quite clear.

Nope.

Dispensationalism holds to that same principle.

One word answers mean the conversation is over, so have a great day. Truly.

Did you miss the rest of his response? That wasn't a "one word answer" in the slightest. He actually agreed with you, and you responded as though he was being argumentative. If this is how you treat Scripture no wonder you're so ignorant of what it says.

Can madists show from scripture who wasn't baptized?

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, [Jesus]“Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”[/Jesus]

-Luke 23:39-43

Might be difficult to return if you consciously reject faith in Christ.

I don't see how one could reject Him having known Him.

But that's beside the point right now. This passage says it's impossible to be renewed to repentance once one has fallen away after having tasted the heavenly gift, etc. Explain that.

 

[marhig]

The guy's right, you have to put this into context.
His earthly ministry was supposed to be to Israel, although he also ministered to Samaritans and gentles. However, his DBR was the primary reason why he was sent, and this was for the world (John 3:16).

Hi, Jesus said what his reason for coming to this world was, he says this.

John 18

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

He came to bare witness to the truth. To bring us the gospel, the ministry of reconciliation and to live it out, bringing us a new and living way, bringing those who believe from darkness into light, from death to life.

And he quoted this in Luke 4 from Isaiah

Luke 4.

The Spirit of the Lord*is*upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord

He then said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears"

This is why Jesus was sent, to preach the gospel to all with the hope of healing and delivering to freedom all who believed in him.

And that's what John 3:16 means also.

 

[marhig]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
-Hebrews 6:4-6

That means it's impossible for those who were once enlightened to be brought back to God if they choose a life in the flesh again over him after truly knowing him, they are those who know God who have been partakers of the holy spirit, who fall away again after having their eyes and ears opened, seeing as they themselves have crucified Christ again and put him to an open shame.

And how do they do this? By knowing God having received light they then live their own lives because they lust after the flesh. And they refuse to do the will of God preferring to love their life first. And they put to death Christ, who is in the heart, by not letting him live in them. Professing to belong to him with their mouths, they live to please themselves and live according to the world and they put him to an open shame.

That verse isn't a good thing before you think that you're all holy, elect and predestinated to be saved, it's a bad thing and shows that we can go back into the world after knowing God and deny him, and crucify Christ again and put him to an open shame.

He then said this straight after

Verse 7

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

If we bring forth thorns and briers once we receive the seed through the word, we are rejected to be burned, no predestination or once saved always saved there!

We have to be living it out and then we will be bringing forth life, and we will be blessed of God, and we will be glorifying him and Christ Jesus by showing openly the life of Christ in us!

 

[Lighthouse]

That means it's impossible for those who were once enlightened to be brought back to God if they choose a life in the flesh again over him after truly knowing him, they are those who know God who have been partakers of the holy spirit, who fall away again after having their eyes and ears opened, seeing as they themselves have crucified Christ again and put him to an open shame.

And how do they do this? By knowing God having received light they then live their own lives because they lust after the flesh. And they refuse to do the will of God preferring to love their life first. And they put to death Christ, who is in the heart, by not letting him live in them. Professing to belong to him with their mouths, they live to please themselves and live according to the world and they put him to an open shame.

That verse isn't a good thing before you think that you're all holy, elect and predestinated to be saved, it's a bad thing and shows that we can go back into the world after knowing God and deny him, and crucify Christ again and put him to an open shame.

He then said this straight after

Verse 7

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

If we bring forth thorns and briers once we receive the seed through the word, we are rejected to be burned, no predestination or once saved always saved there!

We have to be living it out and then we will be bringing forth life, and we will be blessed of God, and we will be glorifying him and Christ Jesus by showing openly the life of Christ in us!

So basically, "salvation can be lost and once it's lost you can't get it back"?

 

[marhig]

So basically, "salvation can be lost and once it's lost you can't get it back"?

Only God knows who is and who isn't eternally saved. No man can know that!

 

[Lighthouse]

Only God knows who is and who isn't eternally saved. No man can know that!

Not what I asked.

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean that salvation an be lost and that once it is it can't be regained? Is this God telling us there is only one chance and if you blow it that's it?

 

[marhig]

Not what I asked.

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean that salvation an be lost and that once it is it can't be regained? Is this God telling us there is only one chance and if you blow it that's it?

I believe that God gives us many chances, but we aren't to take God lightly, he won't be mocked. He's very forgiving, but yes I believe we can lose our salvation, if we keep putting ourselves before God. Was Judas once saved always saved? Was he predestined to eternal salvation? He was an apostle of Christ, chosen by Jesus, yet Jesus said he had a devil! He betrayed Christ over to be crucified falling away because he went after his own lusts. And we can do that, we can betray him and put ourselves first before him. I don't know who is saved. But I know that if I don't live by the will of God, and I go after the lusts of the flesh that I'm in danger of being rejected.

God has blessed me to know him and Christ, and I know that I have a precious gift. I know that I'm not to take it lightly and that I'm to live it out and be a doer of the word and not a hearer only. And if we truly love God with all our heart, then we will put him first and we will truly follow Jesus.

You'll know those who are being saved, they will be those who, through faith, by the grace of God, and through Christ are overcoming the flesh. You will see the life of Christ in them, they won't care for the things of this world, it will have nothing in them. And they will be living to please God not flesh.

But only God and him alone knows who is eternally saved, and that goes for me too!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

One of the those crucified with Jesus was a believer and was baptized by John.

You need to consider the truth of that.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Not what I asked.

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean that salvation an be lost and that once it is it can't be regained? Is this God telling us there is only one chance and if you blow it that's it?

It means that if one should sin so gravely and disregard all correction then one may not be able or be allowed to repent.

Judas was one of those.

LA

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe that God gives us many chances, but we aren't to take God lightly, he won't be mocked. He's very forgiving, but yes I believe we can lose our salvation, if we keep putting ourselves before God. Was Judas once saved always saved? Was he predestined to eternal salvation? He was an apostle of Christ, chosen by Jesus, yet Jesus said he had a devil! He betrayed Christ over to be crucified falling away because he went after his own lusts. And we can do that, we can betray him and put ourselves first before him. I don't know who is saved. But I know that if I don't live by the will of God, and I go after the lusts of the flesh that I'm in danger of being rejected.

God has blessed me to know him and Christ, and I know that I have a precious gift. I know that I'm not to take it lightly and that I'm to live it out and be a doer of the word and not a hearer only. And if we truly love God with all our heart, then we will put him first and we will truly follow Jesus.

You'll know those who are being saved, they will be those who, through faith, by the grace of God, and through Christ are overcoming the flesh. You will see the life of Christ in them, they won't care for the things of this world, it will have nothing in them. And they will be living to please God not flesh.

But only God and him alone knows who is eternally saved, and that goes for me too!

1. Judas died before the cross; he was never saved. At least not this side of Paradise.
2. The passage states that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Do you know what "impossible" means?
3. What did you do that lead God to accept you; what did you do that earned you your salvation?

 

[musterion]

So salvation can be lost and once that happens a person is lost forever?

It always ends up theoretical with them. It never happens to anyone they know and certainly won't happen to themselves (just ask him). It's always some hypothetical person out there somewhere...a person no one ever meets, much less can prove has fallen away forever, or had believed the saving Gospel in the first place.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

One of the those crucified with Jesus was a believer and was baptized by John.

You need to consider the truth of that.

LA

Scripture to back that up?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It means that if one should sin so gravely and disregard all correction then one may not be able or be allowed to repent.

Judas was one of those.

LA

:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It means go join a real church, hombre

Like your Catholic church?

 

[musterion]

Pretty much.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

By the way, Hebrews was pertaining to, The House of Israel not the Body of Christ.

 

[marhig]

It always ends up theoretical with them. It never happens to anyone they know and certainly won't happen to themselves (just ask him). It's always some hypothetical person out there somewhere...a person no one ever meets, much less can prove has fallen away forever, or had believed the saving Gospel in the first place.

I believe it can happen to me, I know I'm to obey God and live right before him. And if you go back a couple of posts, you'll see that I said me included.

I don't think I'm better than anyone, and I know that I can fall if God doesn't keep me from falling, and I know that the only way he'll leave me, is if I go after the flesh and disobey him. It says in Romans 1 that God gave them over to their reprobate minds because they went after the filth of the flesh

And even Jesus himself said that the Father never leaves him because he always does that which pleased him. So God can leave us.

I don't see myself as elect and others destined to hell, I see myself as an unprofitable servant, blessed by the grace of God. With the hope that everyone will go heaven!

 

[marhig]

1. Judas died before the cross; he was never saved. At least not this side of Paradise.
2. The passage states that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Do you know what "impossible" means?
3. What did you do that lead God to accept you; what did you do that earned you your salvation?

Judas had a choice, he chose the world and flesh. And he fell because of his own doing, and so can we. It says clearly right through the new testament that we can fall away again. And it says that carrying on sinning brings forth death.

I think you need to read that chapter again right the way through, it's clear by reading it that we can lose our salvation, it's not about it being impossible to lose our salvation, is the opposite.

I first believed Jesus, and followed him, then as time progressed God has blessed me with the holy spirit who through Christ is helping me overcome and as I obey God, he is strengthening me to overcome more and more.

If we're truly born of God, and walking in the spirit, then we'll be overcoming the flesh, and the things of this world will mean nothing to us.