lain:
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
ECT JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
- Thread starter Cruciform
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Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Do you love God with all of your heart, with all of your mind, with all of your strength?
Answer yes or no.
LA
The fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church, because they claim it allowed traditional Greco-Roman culture (i.e.Greco-Roman mysteries, deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus, pagan festivals and Mithraic sun worship and idol worship) into the church. In short, in their opinion, the church has fallen into apostasy. They feel that to attract the pagans to nominal Christianity, the Catholic Church took measures to amalgamate the Christian and pagan festivals so pagans would join the church; for example, bringing in the pagan festival of Easter as a substitute for the Pasch or Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival
Constantine the Great (c. 325 AD) merged paganism with Christianity, seeking to bring unity and stability under his rule, and advance acceptance of and the power of the church by all sectors of the empire. However, this had a corrupting effect on the beliefs of the church and through decades of succession by poor, often politically motivated leadership, abuses of scriptural application became prevalent.
Great Apostasy
Constantine the Great (c. 325 AD) merged paganism with Christianity, seeking to bring unity and stability under his rule, and advance acceptance of and the power of the church by all sectors of the empire. However, this had a corrupting effect on the beliefs of the church and through decades of succession by poor, often politically motivated leadership, abuses of scriptural application became prevalent.
Great Apostasy
turbosixx
New member
Yes, I thought I made that clear.
And I provided supporting scripture.
turbosixx
New member
That's right. How do you tell a counterfeit? You compare it to the real thing. The RCC doesn't look anything like the church that Jesus built through his apostles.
2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
The "forbidding to marry" and the "commanding to abstain from meats" were held to refer to the elaborate code, or Canon law of the Roman Catholic Church, involving priestly celibacy, Lent, and similar rules promulgated by the medieval church.
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
The "forbidding to marry" and the "commanding to abstain from meats" were held to refer to the elaborate code, or Canon law of the Roman Catholic Church, involving priestly celibacy, Lent, and similar rules promulgated by the medieval church.
Cruciform
New member
So, then, you affirm the doctrine of the Trinity and divinity of Jesus Christ. And yet, the theological terms "Incarnation" and "Trinity" do not appear in Scripture. Thus, your following comment seems odd:
"If baptism is a sign the Holy Spirit would have said so."
I pointed out that the New Testament---and specifically Paul---does indeed indicate that baptism is the sign of the New Covenant. But you seem to be demanding that the phrase "baptism is a sign" must appear explicitly in Scripture, something you don't require for your affirmation of the Trinity and Incarnation. Your double standard on this point is noted.
Cruciform
New member
Here you have engaged in the ancient pseudo-Christian heresy known as Primitivism, the notion that the Church should have remained in its infant state, never developing, growing, or changing. However, Jesus himself refuted any such naive notion in texts like Mt. 13:31-32 and 16:18. Your expectations for Christ's two-millennia-old Church are simply themselves unbiblical.
"They [Catholics] made the sacrament which they should accept from God, namely, the body and blood of Christ, into a sacrifice and have offered it to the selfsame God...Furthermore, they do not regard Christ's body and blood as a sacrifice of thanksgiving, but as a sacrifice of works...This is the true and chief abomination and the basis of all blasphemy in the papacy."
Martin Luther
Martin Luther
Cruciform
New member
Your appeal to the merely human opinions of a formal heretic who rejected Christ's one historic Church---and therefore Christ himself (Lk. 10:16)---is noted.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says Mary joined herself with Christ's sacrifice (964),[93] that Mary was free from original sin (966),[94] she was taken bodily to heaven (966),[95] that she has a saving office (969).[96] The church's devotion to Mary is intrinsic to the church's worship (970). The teaching that Mary collaborated with the work of her Son has no basis in Scripture. What is observed in the prayers to Mary and the Marian festivals is worship by whatever name the church chooses to call it. It is this practice that we reject. Mary cannot be treated as a co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix. Simply associating Mary's saving work with the saving work of her Son does not justify the false role Rome gives her.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM
Roman Catholic teachings show that the so-called oral traditions do not come from God who inspired the Scripture.
You worship a human dictator. Already noted.:yawn:
Already noted. :yawn:
turbosixx
New member
Why do you think I didn't call it the "trinity"? You did. We call God as three persons the Godhead as a description, not a name or label.
Thus, your following comment seems odd:
"If baptism is a sign the Holy Spirit would have said so."
But you seem to be demanding that the phrase "baptism is a sign" must appear explicitly in Scripture, something you don't require for your affirmation of the Trinity and Incarnation. Your double standard on this point is noted.[/QUOTE]The reason I don’t call it a sign is because scripture doesn’t call it a sign.
11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God;
It’s so much more than that just a sign. Here’s just one example.
baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Do you know of a scripture that says circumcision is more than a sign? I don’t off the top of my head.
When people look at it as just a sign, it diminishes its importance opening the door to change it and the way things are going do away with it. The devil is doing a very good job at convincing people baptism isn’t necessary and one of his tactics is to call it a sign.
Circumcision is a visible sign and was a distinctive mark for the Jews. Can you see the sign of those who have been baptized?
Yes, Paul says that having been baptized we have been circumcised, but Paul was pointing out that being in Christ makes us spiritual Israel, God’s people. What basically made a person a Jew was being a child of Abraham and being circumcised as Paul says here:
Phil. 3:2… Beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision,….4… If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel,[/I]
His point is that we are in Christ and there is no need for physical circumcision to be God’s people.
Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands
Here we are told we are Abraham’s descendants.
Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ…. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
None of what you have said changes that fact that the church that God built through the apostles only baptized those who believed the message.
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
I’m not familiar with this in scripture. Do you have any verses?
turbosixx
New member
Can you prove that I am not in Christ?
turbosixx
New member
First, your accusations are based on “notions” not God’s word. Yes, the church was to grow and we can see that in scripture.
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Second, you're make a huge leap not based on God's word, “changing”. No where do I see change in scripture and I’m sure not trusting the “early church”.
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
These scripture show the church growing not changing.
Show me what the church of the NT is lacking?
turbosixx
New member
Yep. When the people wanted to give her more honor than she deserved, Jesus didn't allow it.
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Catholics are followers of men, not Christ.
Cruciform
New member
Amen. So the Christian Church has believed and taught from her earliest history.
The Catechism actually says no such thing in paragraph 970. I have no idea where you got this.
...all this according to nothing more than the merely human and entirely non-authoritative opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect. No thanks. Been there, done that.
Cruciform
New member
I never suggested that you weren't in Christ, so your question is entirely irrelevant.