Nope - look up catholic, it's universal
ECT JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
- Thread starter Cruciform
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Jesus is the cornerstone, period !
We say catholic in our confessions in every service and yet the rominists wants to strip it from us cause they think they own the copyright. Goofy denomination from Rome !
SaulToPaul 2
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Cruciform
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Yes, and the universal Church founded by Jesus Christ himself has been commonly known as "the Catholic Church" since the end of the 1st century.
Cruciform
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Not in Mt. 16:18, in which Jesus describes himself a the Builder, and Peter as "the Rock."
Then years later, the catholic religion became corrupt and evil
When, exactly? Many people say that the Nicene council was when it went bad, but that still makes the Lord out to be a lying false prophet, because He said, "The gates of the netherworld will not prevail against [her]." If she went bad at Nicaea then those gates prevailed, and in order to take the Lord's prophecy as Gospel, we have to imagine that at the point, or at some other point, the Church went underground and became invisible. That's of course possible, but there's no hint that that would happen in Scripture, not a whiff of that. The Lord didn't allow for that in Matthew 16:18, not a whiff.
Maybe you believe it happened at the Great Schism---well then you better be Orthodox, because that's what you are if you believe that she went bad then. What about during the Western Schism? Then still, you're saying that it went secret then, and we cannot locate her by searching history. She's been invisible and secret for some time now.
But we all know that we're not schismatics, we're Protestants, and we were invented during the Reformation of the Church, which was more like a stuck animal bleeding out than a reformation of any kind, but the Church did respond directly to it with the Tridentine council and the Roman Catechism, which codified the Church's teaching at that time, even though it was only enforced in the Roman diocese, as far as I know. Though I could be wrong.
In contrast is the notion that she has always been that Church in Matthew 16:18, and that everything that happened that you feel makes it a divergence from the Lord's prophecy, actually wasn't, and she remains to this day to be that Church that He built upon Peter.
The Second Vatican council: we're told to interpret it as a continuation and not as a discontinuity from what she has always taught. By a sitting pope (by Benedict XVI I believe). It means that if you want to know what the Lord wants us to know today, if you believe that the Catholic Church is in some real way, the Church of Matthew 16:18, then the Catechism is what the Lord wants us to know, about Him, about the Church, and about every matter of faith, doctrine and morals.
turbosixx
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The Jews could trace their roots back too. They had the law and the prophets but what did Jesus find? Were the leaders Godly?
Matt. 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
After he raised Lazarus:
Jn. 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."… 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
Jn. 12:10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also; 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus….. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
Just as the Israelites rejected God being their ruler from Heaven so has the evolved (RCC) church rejected Christ ruling from Heaven.
1 Sam. 8:5… Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 The Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
They have set up men on earth in the place of Christ.
What was the movement that caused them to “originate” in 1830? Hint, it wasn’t the reform movement.
Just because they appeared on the scene at that time doesn’t mean it isn’t the church founded by Christ. Try to look at it from my point of view. How do you spot counterfeit currency? You compare it to the real thing. Christ said he was going to build his church. His apostles, with the help of others, were the ones who did the building and we can see what they built. 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone.
When we compare the church established by Christ through his apostles, it resembles nothing of the RCC. When Alexander compared what he saw in God’s inspired word and the RCC, they weren’t the same. That’s why they called themselves Disciples of Christ and church of Christ because that's what they found in scripture.
God has given us Israel’s history so we can see how man acts over time.
It doesn’t take long for man to stray from God.
Judges 2:8 Then Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died… 10 All that generation also were gathered to their fathers; and there arose another generation after them who did not know the Lord, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel. 11 Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals, 12 and they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers,
Even though their origins are with Abraham and Moses they eventually strayed so far they had totally forgotten the law.
2 Kings 22:8 Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, "I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord."…… 10 Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes….13 "Go, inquire of the Lord for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for great is the wrath of the Lord that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."
Now when they found this book and started to do all in the book, is it man-made? That is what Alexander did; his eyes were opened and did only what the book said to do.
If you can show me what we say or do that doesn’t make us Christ’s church, I would appreciate it.
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Cruciform
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Proof, please.
The foundation
turbosixx
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Here are my problems with this. Nowhere are we told baptism is a sign, including the verse you referenced. God does tell us circumcision is a sign for the old covenant in both the NT and OT.
Gen. 17:11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Rom. 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised,
I believe the reason is because it’s so much more than a sign. Just as you believe it’s necessary for salvation, so do I.
Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
If Christ had wanted infants baptized, he or the apostles could have easily said so and practiced it but they didn’t. I believe this to be the reason. In the OT, Jews were born into God’s family, child of Abraham and circumcised. From the were taught they were God’s people and had to learn his ways. We can see from scripture, God had a new plan. No more would they have to be taught “know God” because they all would know him. In the new covenant, you can’t get in until you know God.
Heb. 8: 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 "And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more."
God has taken it from being born into his people to wanting to be his people.
We have to believe.
Jn. 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;
Also, baptism was total immersion as in a burial.
Col. 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
Jn. 3:23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there;
Acts 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water,
There is no NT case.
The RCC and friends will persecute other believers until they get run over by Russia and China.
Trumpets ch 5 and 6.
Trumpets ch 5 and 6.
Cruciform
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St. Paul directly equates circumcision and baptism, and given that circumcision---as you admit---was the sign of the Old Covenant, it follows from their equation by Paul that baptism is likewise the sign of the New Covenant. This is confirmed by the early Church as well, which unambiguously believed and taught that baptism is indeed the sign of the New Covenant.
Cruciform
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lain:
turbosixx
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From my view point, I don’t know why you would want to trust the eternal destiny of your soul to what the early church “believed and taught” instead of what we KNOW to be, without a shadow of a doubt, the inspired word of God? Let’s look at what the Holy Spirit tells us about the early church.
Paul warns the elders at Ephesus that they will be challenged by false teachers.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Paul tells Timothy to help with these false teachings at Ephesus
1Tim. 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
The church is susceptible to false doctrines.
2 Cor. 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
We see they did accept false teachings
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
There will come a time when people will not want the truth but will want teaching they desire.
2 Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
There is so much more evidence but this should be sufficient to prove that the beliefs and teachings of the early church cannot be trusted, only that from the apostles.
Do you think that false teachers, false apostles say they’re going against the truth or do they assert they are teaching the truth?
2 Cor. 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
The Holy Spirit makes it clearly evident that if the church didn’t stick to the faith once for all delivered, that they would be led astray from within. Do yourself a favor and compare the RCC and its teachings with the church built and teachings of those we know without a doubt are not false apostles.
turbosixx
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This is not how I determine truth. I trust what it says. If baptism is a sign the Holy Spirit would have said so. Most denominations have almost done away with baptism because they see it merely as a sign.
Can you tell me something that we teach or do that is not in accordance with truth?
Cruciform
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He has, just not explicitly in the Bible.
QUESTION: As a professing Christian, do you affirm the doctrine of the Trinity, yes or no?
turbosixx
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I believe God is one and three, we call it the Godhead. I don’t fully understand it like I don’t fully understand how God has no beginning and no end. My mind can only comprehend so much.
It’s evident from scripture that God is plural.
Gen. 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
We also see the Son being referred to as God.
Isa. 45:18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it,
Jn. 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him,
We see being baptized in the name of Jesus is as good as being baptized in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
There are more but you get the picture
Cruciform
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So again:
As a professing Christian, do you affirm the doctrine of the Trinity, yes or no?