More on "All Things"

[*Acts9_12Out*]

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.

1 John 3:20
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.

John 21:17
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[lee_merrill]

Re: More on "All Things"

H Jeremy, :wave:

I was about to post a post saying "Where did everybody go?"

The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future.

I would agree. Only I wouldn't call the future unknowable, because I believe God knows it!

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

I believe Jesus had indirect access to all knowledge while he was on earth, and direct access to all knowledge after his resurrection, with the possible exception of the time of his return. So basically, yes...

I think this is the toss before the serve, though... :aimiel:

Blessings,
Lee

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Hi Lee,

I must say, you answer is a bit confusing. I see this is going to be just like the "Without Fail" thread awhile back. We asked tough questions, and none of your calvinist cohorts came to join you. I thank you for at least having the courage to attempt to address the issuses.

I guess what confuses me the most is, you answer "yes" to my question, but the reality of your explaination forces a "no" response. I asked,

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

You answered,

I believe Jesus had indirect access to all knowledge while he was on earth, and direct access to all knowledge after his resurrection, with the possible exception of the time of his return. So basically, yes...

Notice the confusion highlighted by me above. I asked if Christ knows "all things" in the same manner in which the Father knows "all things" and you said, So basically, yes... but with exception. How can Christ know "all things" with an exception? Either He knows "all things" or He doesn't. If there is one thing Christ does not have knowledge of, then He does not know "all things," right? Wouldn't the "time of His return" be included in "all things" if Christ has knowledge of "all things" just as Peter stated?

Secondly, you claim that God knows the future. How is an unknowable future included in "all things" that God knows? Doesn't God know "all things" that are knowable? If the future is unknowable, how can God know it?

God Bless, --Jeremy

 

[Clete]

Jeremy,

First let me say, cool thread! I too was beginning to think everybody was on vacation or something.

Allow me to play devil's advocate and anticipate at least part of Lee's response...

By what means have you determined that the future is unknowable? It seems at this point that the premise that God cannot know the future is based upon this single assumption. Can you establish that the future is, in fact, unknowable?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Jeremy: If there is one thing Christ does not have knowledge of, then He does not know "all things," right?

The Father would tell him if he asked! Even while he was on earth:

John 11:22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.

So potential knowledge of all things, and actual knowledge of all but this, or maybe Jesus knows this now, that is possible, too.

Jeremy: Secondly, you claim that God knows the future. How is an unknowable future included in "all things" that God knows?

Clete: Can you establish that the future is, in fact, unknowable?

You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.
Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...
Isaiah 39:6 The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon.
Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Thus I think we may conclude that the future is not unknowable, and that "all things" includes the future, too.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill
You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:

:shut:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.
Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...
Isaiah 39:6 The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon.
Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Thus I think we may conclude that the future is not unknowable, and that "all things" includes the future, too.

Blessings,
Lee

I do not believe the Biblical evidence is sufficient to prove that the future is knowable in the way you suggest (exhaustively).
The future is, however, DEFINATELY predictable!
The more information you have at your disposal the more predictable the future becomes. God is able to know all things that are knowable and thus He is able to very accurately predict the future. He is also able to interact with His creation and work to bring about certain things that He wishes to have happen. There are, however, Biblical examples of God predicting things that do not end up happening and situations were God regrets having done something or where God changes His mind, none of which would make any sense, even if figuratively interpreted, if God knows the future exhaustively. Therefore we can say that God is quite certain what will happen, at least in general terms, but to say that He knows the future exhaustively is an overstatement and is at odds with Scripture.

Resting in Him,
Clete :Clete:

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Clete,

The more information you have at your disposal the more predictable the future becomes. God is able to know all things that are knowable and thus He is able to very accurately predict the future.

But these above verses show God being certain about the future, in areas that involve human choices, and some in areas where OV people hold that God will not force the issue:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Are you saying that God can be certain about human choices, sometimes? But how can God be certain about the choices of people who are not yet in existence?

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

That involves lots of human choices, mostly with people not yet born.

There are, however, Biblical examples of God predicting things that do not end up happening and situations were God regrets having done something or where God changes His mind, none of which would make any sense, even if figuratively interpreted, if God knows the future exhaustively.

Well, let's deal with them! But if God can guarantee the future, then certainly God is not estimating...

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi Clete,



But these above verses show God being certain about the future, in areas that involve human choices, and some in areas where OV people hold that God will not force the issue:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Are you saying that God can be certain about human choices, sometimes? But how can God be certain about the choices of people who are not yet in existence?

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

That involves lots of human choices, mostly with people not yet born.



Well, let's deal with them! But if God can guarantee the future, then certainly God is not estimating...

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

Why jump through all the hoops trying to get a perfectly plain passage of scripture to say the exact opposite of what it is clearly trying to communicate?
Why?
Why is it so odious to believe that God does not know precisely what will happen in the future?
What damage does it do to God to see Him as a person who is trying His best to do what can be done to save as many of His lost creation as possible?
Isn't it a lot easier just to take the Bible at face value and believe in a God who can be surprised and who can change His mind and who can make decisions that He later regrets and who genuinely interacts on a personal level with creatures whom He has given a genuinely free will?
I really don't get it? Why is this idea of God being a know-it-all, so important to you Calvinist types?

And there are lots more passages that you would have to deal with than the couple you mentioned.
Here’s a few for you to mull over…

Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free

I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

2 samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite

Jer. 15:6 - You have forsaken me and turned your back on me," says the LORD. "Therefore, I will raise my clenched fists to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.

Jer. 18:8, 10 - and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.

Jer 26:3 It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.

Jer 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the evil which I did to you.

Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.

Amo 7:3 The LORD repented concerning this; "It shall not be," said the LORD

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

And in regards to thwarting the will of God…

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

And there are many more! Indeed, there are whole books of the Bible that simply make no sense if God exhaustively knows the future!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I generally avoid proof texting as it tends to bog down the discussion. Please don’t feel obligated to respond to each verse. I only posted them to show that I can proof text with the best of them. The real catch is that I have as many proof texts as there are verses in the Bible! I simply do not have any problem texts! You brought up a few that you believe cause the OV a problem but there isn’t anything in them that requires a belief that God knows the future in advance. There are at least a thousand different things that could have come about that would have fit into the verses that you site. Things did not have to happen precisely the way they did in order for those “prophecies� to come true. And even if they hadn’t come true at all, it would not have been the first time or the last. Prophecy is not prewritten history!

 

[freelight]

omniscience........

omniscience........

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.



The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.



If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

)========== Hello Jeremy and all,...................it would appear that Christ could no more know the unknowable future(exhaustively) any more than God the Father knows it - of course Jesus the Man would have a lesser degree of knowledge with his mortal limitations.

The examples in both of your scriptural references in no way implies an exhaustive knowledge necessarily...but are more likely relative to the context in which these statements are made - In 1 John 3:20......the indication is being that God knows our hearts......'all' that is in them. John 21:17 also implies that Jesus being who he is ( more spiritually developed and keen than himself) knows what is truly in his heart (if he loved him or not).
Therefore these verses do not and cannot necessarily prove any exhaustive knowledge of God...they are merely assumed suppositions relative to their immediate context.

I propose/assume that because God is truly transcendent and supreme in his divinity and knowledge.....that to Man it is logical to assume He knows 'all things'.....for all things are ever before him within the scope of His divine Consciousness. God is ever knowing all past and currently present events/realities AS they have transpired and ARE transpiring. These are knowable and currently known realities - actuals that are actually existing and coming into existence from moment to moment...and obviously all that is past. However it is evident that God does not know exhaustively the future....as many variables exist that help shape/govern how potentialities become actualities...in the spontanaeity of Life as it ever unfolds - among these are free agency(free will). We can say that God certainly knows all potentials in existence...and possible outcomes....for He dreams these into being and wills that His free will creatures will coordinate their wills with His....in mutual cooperation...so that both enjoy continued pleasures thru-out eternity. It stands to reason God cannot know all things exhaustively. 'All knowing' refers to his transcendent knowledge...for all things are ever transpiring and being born(arising) within His divine Consciousness - in this sense certainly Deity is all knowing. He is ever knowing all things past, present....and all future potential destinies. God is Supreme, goes without saying. So...He is indeed all knowing...knowing all things that are within his field of knowing. It must be frightening for some to consider that God may even face the unknowable! Well......the unknowable is ever present within the unfolding sequence of potentials turning into actuals from moment to moment within a certain dimension-frequency that is coming to be known...but the near and far future events as they transpire cannot be known exhaustively because they are not yet 'actual' or 'actualized' in the most concrete sense. Gods knowledge forever of course far transcends mans for Gods universality and supremacy is multi if not trans-dimensional. One must consider the coordinates of free will within the Universe of God.....as factoral in the conditioning of laws that govern potentials turning into actuals in the unfolding of time. While God may never be 'surprised'.....I believe He still maintains a degree of wonder and awe with-in His creation and ever anticipates how the universes and his free will creatures shall fare in their spiritual journeys....as they expand in accordance to his divine Will, plan, hopes and dreams.
The whole establishment of 'covenants' are premised upon the principle of free agency and cooperation. With these dynamics at work within the unfolding of time-space events and realities as they come into being.....God cannot know the future (as it will unfold in minute detail and perfection)...for such potentials have not yet become actuals.

I am content currently to know that Gods knowledge is vastly superior to Mans........and in that I am sure to trust in His divine Providence...knowing that His Will is ever good and true. He knows all the plans and dreams that He has for Man...and is ever dreaming the expansion of infinite joy and pleasure for all his creation. All potentials and actuals are ever arising in His divine Consciousness.....in eternal revolution. God knows His Will indeed. God knows all that is past. God knows all that is occuring NOW(present). God is coming to know all future unfoldings/events as they become actual.



paul

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Stop smacking the truth, Clete! You're s'posed to believe it!

Clete: Why jump through all the hoops trying to get a perfectly plain passage of scripture to say the exact opposite of what it is clearly trying to communicate?

It's not clear, though! "Thought" is Hebrew "davar," which normally means "said." Thus "thought" is an unusual meaning here. The word "but" is usually "and," again, we have the secondary meaning. So your interpretation has hoops here, too. The normal, everyday meaning of these words does not result in absurdity, these choices appear in some translations, even.

I simply do not have any problem texts!

I think the verses I quoted are problems for your view, though!

Why is it so odious to believe that God does not know precisely what will happen in the future?

Because Scripture says he does! He says "surely this," and "certainly that."

What damage does it do to God to see Him as a person who is trying His best to do what can be done to save as many of His lost creation as possible?

Then maybe we can do better! Or some other god...

2 Kings 1:2 So he sent messengers, saying to them, "Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury."

Isn't it a lot easier just to take the Bible at face value and believe in a God who can be surprised and who can change His mind and who can make decisions that He later regrets and who genuinely interacts on a personal level with creatures whom He has given a genuinely free will?

We have to take all the verses, though! And that's not always easy...

And there are lots more passages that you would have to deal with than the couple you mentioned.

We're done with the toss, I think, here's the serve! I will pick the ones I think are especially difficult, and not address them all, as you suggested further down...

Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Genesis 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. (NIV)

Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Exodus 32:14 Then the Lord relented ... (NIV)

The battle of the translations, here...

Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free

Deuteronomy 32:36 The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on his servants ... (NIV)

I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

1 Samuel 15:35 And the Lord was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel. (NIV)

2 samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite

2 Samuel 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord was grieved because of the calamity ... (NIV)

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

Are you saying that God thought the Ninevites would not repent? Then Jonah had a better grasp of the situation than God! "Is this not what I said when I was still at home?" (Jon. 4:2). Then we should consult disobedient prophets, instead of God, sometimes. "Go and consult Baal-Zebub..."

And in regards to thwarting the will of God…

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

This doesn't imply that they will never come...

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

I believe we may hope that all will be saved. Thus they will not resist forever...

Romans 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

Paul: God is coming to know all future unfoldings/events as they become actual.

Clete: You brought up a few that you believe cause the OV a problem but there isn’t anything in them that requires a belief that God knows the future in advance. There are at least a thousand different things that could have come about that would have fit into the verses ...

Let's just pick one of these...

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now I don't see any way to avoid the conclusion that he and he household would indeed all be saved, when Peter brought his message. And this is certainly knowledge of the future in advance.

I recommend to you a search on the word "surely." I chose a small selection of prophecies! Prophecies that involve human choices, too, and even choices about salvation...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.

If God says HE will make somebody fruitful, He's going to do it. This has nothing to do with foreknowledge. God obviously foreknows decisions He's made Himself. I think this principle is explained in Isaiah 46:

9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

Once again, God can say this because He already said He would do this. If you remember in Genesis 15, where God told Abraham (Abram) "Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." This was an unconditional covenant to Abraham. Again in Genesis 17:6 God says to Abraham "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. " So once again the principle in Isaiah 46 applies.

Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.

Same thing here. "I will surely save you"

2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Once again, God has Himself guaranteed our salvation after He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 13:12, Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13,14)

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now this is a good one. On a side note, I believe you are a calvinist (please correct me if I'm wrong), but this verse disproves Total Depravity. In Acts 10:1-2, we find out that Cornelius fears God.

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Also in verse 3 and 4 an angel of God tells him that his prayers and alms have been heard by God.

3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

So we have a man who fears God and prays to God, but is not yet saved by the words in Acts 11:14. I thought Totally Depraved men could not do this Lee?

Anyways, Cornelius is what we would call a "proselyte at the gate." He feared God, but had not yet heard the message of salvation, to which God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius is on the brink of being saved. He's ready to be saved, God knows this, and therefore sends Peter to preach the message to him. He knows Cornelius' heart and therefore knows he's ready to be saved. He doesn't need to have foreknowledge to know Cornelius' will be saved once he hears the message of salvation.

The battle of the translations, here...

Well, no need for a battle here. All the verses Clete mentioned contain the exact same hebrew word "nacham." Our english translations want to translate this one word numerous different ways. Well, the meaning of "nacham" is simply repent, or change of mind. It means repent or change of mind in EVERY instance Clete mentioned. God changes His mind. This is the very core of the open view, and hence, the biblical view of God. God changes His mind, and therefore, as Clete mentioned, prophecy is not prewritten history. If God changes His mind, then the future is not exhaustively settled.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Excellent post Paul. I don't agree that God knows all future possibilities, but your post was well-written and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, these verses are not at the heart of the open view, but I'm interested in how changing "thought" to "said" changes anything about the intended meaning the OVer is trying to portray. Whether or not God "said" she would return , or "thought" she would return, the fact remains, SHE DID NOT RETURN, by the words of God Himself. If God actually meant SHE WOULD RETURN SOMeWHERE IN THE DISTANT FUTURE, why would He bother saying, "I said she would return, but she did not."?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Doogieduff,

If God says HE will make somebody fruitful, He's going to do it. This has nothing to do with foreknowledge. God obviously foreknows decisions He's made Himself.

But making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

Same thing here. "I will surely save you"

Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Once again, God has Himself guaranteed our salvation after He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 13:12, Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13,14)

Have a flower! That's the "P" in TULIP. Most free-will people don't hold to that, though.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now this is a good one. On a side note, I believe you are a calvinist (please correct me if I'm wrong), but this verse disproves Total Depravity. In Acts 10:1-2, we find out that Cornelius fears God.

Yes, I am a (four-point) Calvinist, without the limited atonement petal on my tulip. Cornelius didn't start out that way, though! I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

So we have a man who fears God and prays to God, but is not yet saved by the words in Acts 11:14. I thought Totally Depraved men could not do this Lee?

Well, again, I believe conversion involves a process, usually, even with Paul, he met Christ dramatically, most people place his conversion there, yet Ananias tells him to get up and be baptized, and wash away his sins.

Anyways, Cornelius is what we would call a "proselyte at the gate." He feared God, but had not yet heard the message of salvation, to which God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius is on the brink of being saved. He's ready to be saved, God knows this, and therefore sends Peter to preach the message to him.

I agree...

He knows Cornelius' heart and therefore knows he's ready to be saved. He doesn't need to have foreknowledge to know Cornelius' will be saved once he hears the message of salvation.

I think OV has to call this an estimate here, though, not a sure prediction. And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation):

ISA 45:17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

Well, no need for a battle here. All the verses Clete mentioned contain the exact same hebrew word "nacham." Our english translations want to translate this one word numerous different ways. Well, the meaning of "nacham" is simply repent, or change of mind.

There's more possible meanings, though! You can't snip those out. It can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

It means repent or change of mind in EVERY instance Clete mentioned. God changes His mind. This is the very core of the open view, and hence, the biblical view of God.

I could speak similarly, too, though! "It means 'grieved' in every instance Clete mentioned, God does not change his mind, this is thus the biblical view of God." But interpreting Scripture often involves making judgment calls, we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

God changes His mind, and therefore, as Clete mentioned, prophecy is not prewritten history. If God changes His mind, then the future is not exhaustively settled.

But prophecy is prewritten history, when those prophecies are not conditional:

ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!

ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.

I'm interested in how changing "thought" to "said" changes anything about the intended meaning...

It does make quite a difference! If God thought X, and Y happened, then God certainly was mistaken. If God said X, and Y happened, but eventually X happened anyway, then God was not mistaken...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi Doogieduff,

But making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

Not with God. If you going to force God into having to have foreknowledge to make a promise like that, you're limiting Him very much. God is definitely powerful enough to make a promsie like that, make it come to pass, and do all that without foreknowledge.

Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

Well they could, but that's not realistic. Who's going to rebel when someone's going to save them? By the way, since we're ont he topic of God doing things for a nation, and the possibility of them rebeling, let's look in Isaiah 5, where God expected good grapes from Israel, but recieved wild grapes. He even asked what more HE could have done to Israel that He had not done. Well I guess HE could have predestined it or foreknown it huh lee? I still can't figure out how God can expect something and not recieve it if He has exhaustive divine foreknowledge.

Have a flower! That's the "P" in TULIP. Most free-will people don't hold to that, though.

Actually no it's not. I'm starting to doubt your version of calvinism after this post. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is only for the body of Christ. Israel ont he other hand had to endure to the end for their salvation to be sure. That's why Peter says to Israel to make their calling and election sure. (2 Pet. 1:10) It wasn't sure lee!

Yes, I am a (four-point) Calvinist, without the limited atonement petal on my tulip. Cornelius didn't start out that way, though! I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

Well, you must hold to the "lee version of total depravity" as calvinism clearly holds to the fact that the unregenerate man cannot understand the things of God, nor can God even communicate to an unregenerate man for the things of God are foolishness to him, and therefore a man must be regenerated (saved) before God can even start to work with him. There's no process with calvinism.

Well, again, I believe conversion involves a process, usually, even with Paul, he met Christ dramatically, most people place his conversion there, yet Ananias tells him to get up and be baptized, and wash away his sins.

Actually Paul was saved before Ananias baptized him.

I think OV has to call this an estimate here, though, not a sure prediction. And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation):

Well, you don't believe that cornelius had free will. I believe he did, and that he could have rejected this message. Obviously God knows us better than we know ourselves, and knew Cornelius' heart so well He knew he was ready to be saved, and that he would believe this message if he was preached it. Similarly, Christ knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times if he were tempted. 1 John 3 and John 21 are both talking baout God's incredible understanding of our hearts. It's amazing to watch psychologists make incredible predictions about people just by getting to know them and their habits. They don't have foreknowledge, yet they can do those things. What's even more amazing is what God can do as He knows our hearts PERFECTLY. You can do a lot with that.

As for Cornelius' household, the same things apply. Acts 10:1 clearly states that Cornelius feared God ALONG WITH HIS HOUSEHOLD. They were all ready lee.

There's more possible meanings, though! You can't snip those out. It can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

That's fine by me, but if you hold to the passibility of God, as do I, you must throw away your calvinist beliefs. calvinism MUST hold to the impassibility of God in order to remain consistent in their theology. As far as I know, all calvinists do.

I could speak similarly, too, though! "It means 'grieved' in every instance Clete mentioned, God does not change his mind, this is thus the biblical view of God." But interpreting Scripture often involves making judgment calls, we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

Ok, I'd argue that the best translation based on context is "repent." King James sure got it right.

But prophecy is prewritten history, when those prophecies are not conditional:

ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!


ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.[/quote]

Oh no no no. Not once in Isaiah 46 does it talk about God "predicting" future events. Read His word carefully. "I will do all My pleasure,' Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it." He clearly says that He will Himself bring about the things He says will come to pass. You can't pull the calvinist wool over my eyes on this apssage.

It does make quite a difference! If God thought X, and Y happened, then God certainly was mistaken. If God said X, and Y happened, but eventually X happened anyway, then God was not mistaken...

Blessings,
Lee

You're only stretching here, and that's ok. If God says something will happen, and then turns around and says "I said this would happen, but it did not!" No man in their right mind will interpret this as God saying He said it would happen int he future. That's crazy. Your logic may seem to work here, at least for you, but it does not stand up on the whole of scripture. That's why God SAID He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but Neb never got it. And based on your reasoning, it cannot come true, since Neb is now dead.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Doogieduff,

Lee: making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

DD: Not with God. If you going to force God into having to have foreknowledge to make a promise like that, you're limiting Him very much. God is definitely powerful enough to make a promise like that, make it come to pass, and do all that without foreknowledge.

I don't see how this explains how God deals with lots of human choices, though. I agree that God is powerful enough to fulfill his promise, but I don't think OV can say the result is at all certain. Some OV folks say God may override free-will, is that what you mean here? With that ticket, that's practically predestination. Have another tulip!

Lee: Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

DD: Well they could, but that's not realistic. Who's going to rebel when someone's going to save them?

2CH 36:15 The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them through his messengers again and again...

MT 21:35-36 The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way...

By the way, since we're on the topic of God doing things for a nation, and the possibility of them rebeling, let's look in Isaiah 5, where God expected good grapes from Israel, but recieved wild grapes. He even asked what more HE could have done to Israel that He had not done.

God wasn't asking for advice on gardening, though! He doesn't wait for an answer, either, and goes on to tell them what more he is going to do. I think the point here is that good fruit from people doesn't come from unvarying pleasant circumstances:

HEB 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces the fruit of righteousness and peace...

The sealing of the Holy Spirit is only for the body of Christ. Israel on the other hand had to endure to the end for their salvation to be sure. That's why Peter says to Israel to make their calling and election sure. (2 Pet. 1:10)

But Peter was writing to all believers, this verse is not just to Israel. And people who are called will indeed be saved (Rom. 8:30), this cannot be a general call, for they must have heard the gospel already. People aren't saved because they are Jewish! Even if they hold on to what they believe. That's just Paul's point in Rom. 9:6,31, etc.

Lee: I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

DD: Well, you must hold to the "lee version of total depravity" as calvinism clearly holds to the fact that the unregenerate man cannot understand the things of God, nor can God even communicate to an unregenerate man for the things of God are foolishness to him, and therefore a man must be regenerated (saved) before God can even start to work with him. There's no process with calvinism.

But God starts his work in peoples' hearts long before they are "born again." I would say that God working in an unbelievers' heart can be the start of the process of conversion, and I don't think that is inconsistent with total depravity. The work in the heart is still God's, resulting in saving faith, but this process of bringing a person to saving faith doesn't happen in a moment.

Lee: And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation)...

DD: Well, you don't believe that cornelius had free will. I believe he did, and that he could have rejected this message.

But then God is estimating here, but I don't think that will do, he says what will happen, not what might happen, or even what will probably happen.

Lee: [Nacham] can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

DD: That's fine by me, but if you hold to the passibility of God, as do I, you must throw away your calvinist beliefs. calvinism MUST hold to the impassibility of God in order to remain consistent in their theology. As far as I know, all calvinists do.

I don't know why this is required for Calvinism, though. I think it is a mistake. How anyone can look at the cross, and the "Man of Sorrows," and claim that God is impassive...

Lee: ... we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

DD: Ok, I'd argue that the best translation based on context is "repent." King James sure got it right.

Your translations against mine, then. We have to look elsewhere to resolve this issue. How about here?

NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This is the same word "nacham," but clearly the context does not allow "grieved" or "sorry." Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it. He can't do it! We have the reason here, too, it is because he is not like us! Not because in this special situation, he has made a firm decision.

Lee: God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!

ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

Lee: This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.

DD: Oh no no no. Not once in Isaiah 46 does it talk about God "predicting" future events.

Well, let's see...

ISA 46:1 Bel bows down, Nebo stoops low...

ISA 46:4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.

ISA 46:11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.

ISA 46:13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

Lots of predictions, just in this chapter! And all through the book of Isaiah. And this is God's claim to divinity, that he can predict the future, all the other candidates had their predictions, and they were not perfect, but God says they didn't know about what he is saying here, and he is different, what he predicts will happen! As you note, in verse 10...

That's why God SAID He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but Neb never got it. And based on your reasoning, it cannot come true, since Neb is now dead.

Conquering a kingdom is a hard thing to find a record of in a brick wall, though. They used the say the Hittites were a Biblical fiction, until they dug some more. We do have verification of lots of prophecies from archeology, so let's not argue from silence in the record. And let's check prophecies we can examine today, and see how they hold up. For instance, the kingdoms that were to follow Babylon, so far so good, and lots of tries to have another kingdom like Babylon or Greece, etc., but all failures so far. Another prophecy is that Babylon will never be rebuilt, so far, so good on that one, too. Another prophecy is that Jerusalem will always be inhabited, and that's still true.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

Re: More on "All Things"

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.



The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.



If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

It is not just Calvinists who believe that God knows the future exhaustively. The Arminians also believe in exhaustive foreknowledge, but for different reasons.

1. Did God from all eternity DECREE whatever will come to pass?

Yes= Calvinism= no contingencies/no uncertainties

No= Arminianism
*alternative (Open Theism)= contingencies

2. Is everything CERTAIN in God's mind from all eternity (exhaustive foreknowledge)?

Yes= Calvinism= decree

Arminian= simple foreknowledge (certainties)

No= * alternative/Open Theism (uncertainties)

God is resourceful, creative, and omnicompetent in His sovereignty. He does not rule free moral agents by meticulous control.

As omnipotence means that God can do anything logically possible to do, so omniscience means that God knows everything knowable. Future free will contingencies are not logically knowable as a certainty from eternity past (absurdity; logical contradiction).

There are 2 motifs in Scripture: God knows SOME things as a certainty and some as open. He has declared them and will bring them to pass by His great ability apart from other moral agents (e.g. First and Second Coming of Christ). God knows free moral choices as possibilities until they become actualities after the choice. He knows the past and present perfectly, and knows the future as it really is (much of it is open and unknowable).

This is not a deficiency in God, but the reality of an open creation that He chose to make. The alternative was to make deterministic robots who could not love in relationship.

 

[lee_merrill]

Re: Re: More on "All Things"

Re: Re: More on "All Things"

Hi Godrulz,

God knows free moral choices as possibilities until they become actualities after the choice. He knows the past and present perfectly, and knows the future as it really is (much of it is open and unknowable).

That's 1st OpenView 8:15, though. How can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

MT 26:34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

Jesus said "truly, truly," which is his way of saying "this is very certain," this was not a guess, or an estimate! And Jesus said Peter would return, too, and I think Peter found comfort in knowing Jesus said that. Not guessed he would return. That wouldn't be very comforting...

This is not a deficiency in God, but the reality of an open creation that He chose to make. The alternative was to make deterministic robots who could not love in relationship.

That's 1st OpenView 12:17. But that's not a Scripture verse! Yes, God frees people when he saves them, then they can have a relationship with him and others. But they're not free before then!

2 Peter 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity ...

John 8:36 ... if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

Is that Calvinism 101 or from the book of Hezekiah?

 

[lee_merrill]

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee