Our Moral God

Keiw1

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All of God's truth is in an untrustworthy bible? Then we would have to have a priest of some sort explain it to us, to tell us which parts are fact and which fiction. That's what those reformers were trying to reform from, so the common man could read the Bible in his own language without the priest. Your position reverses the good parts of the reformation, where they said we can trust the bible, since God has preserved it, even if we can't trust the priests.
The bible is fact. trinity translations are altered( removal of Gods name against his will) and errors translated by Catholicism to fit false council teachings. One must be taught by these( Matt 24:45) or many deep truths and symbolism cannot be understood. They are found in 1 single religion claiming to be christian.
 

Keiw1

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There's an even bigger problem, specifically regarding this.

God cannot be viewed as a "deity of deception," otherwise He would, rationally speaking, be no different than a "demon of deception."


This video is worth a listen, yes, even being over 3 hours long.
God doesn't deceive, but the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one. He deceives. Like this-2Cor 11:12-15
 

JudgeRightly

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The bible is fact.

Yes.

trinity translations are altered (removal of Gods name against his will)

What are these "Trinity translations" you speak of?

and errors translated by Catholicism to fit false council teachings.

I'm not aware of anyone appealing to a single council teaching in this current discussion.

One must be taught by these (Matt 24:45) or many deep truths and symbolism cannot be understood.

And you just so happen to be willing to condescend to us to tell us about it?

They are found in 1 single religion claiming to be christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian, despite their claims.

Jesus warned His followers about those who would come in His name teaching a different message.
 

JudgeRightly

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God doesn't deceive, but the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one. He deceives. Like this-2Cor 11:12-15

You're gone now, but I'm going to address this anyways, for future reference:

You're the one who claimed that we couldn't trust the Bible as it was originally written, and that your cult somehow magically now has the corrected one.

The fact remains at the proper time means-over time truth would be revealed, But the other fact remains all of Gods truth is in the bible, thus before it was revealed all those matters were taught on by every religion using Gods bible. Thus the ones who had holy spirit and truth was revealed at the proper time then made corrections. All of creation has watched the corrections over the last 150 years or so. Condemned by the ones who never make correction. New light will come still, especially at the very end of how God will save his through the tribulation and Armageddon.

That makes God a deity of deception, because He intentionally misled billions of people into believing falsehoods.
 

Bladerunner

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The bible is fact. trinity translations are altered( removal of Gods name against his will) and errors translated by Catholicism to fit false council teachings. One must be taught by these( Matt 24:45) or many deep truths and symbolism cannot be understood. They are found in 1 single religion claiming to be christian.
Then you know what situation you are in...It seems only GOD can help you. Have a good day.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Wrong. And your answer leads to moral relativism.
Was revisiting in the other thread. There is a difference between 'morality' and 'absolute morality.' We 'tend' to think of morality as 'absolute' but it isn't until 'absolute' is placed as the qualifier (seems like the point of discussion to me).
I believe there are a few necessities/formalities necessary in preliminary:

If you believe God always acts 'properly,' what do you mean by that? In the thread "Our Moral God" the problem is in definition and eye-of-the-beholder understanding of any given 'moral' idea. Some for instance, believe it is 'immoral' for God to send anybody to hell. There are all kinds of assumptions that need to be unpacked and addressed: Does it have to mean God is immoral? (Nope, has to be proved/connected - for one instance).

Definitions: If Morality is: "Proper behavior" then 'no.' It is not absolute. It cannot be. If it is 'proper' to belch in Japan and 'rude' in America, obviously then, it'd not be true. You'd have to qualify such with something at least like "Absolute moral" because 'moral' itself does not intimate/necessitate 'absolute.'

You can argue 'til you are blue in the face that God has to be 'moral' but if morality itself isn't absolute (appears initially and under scrutiny that it is not) then you cannot argue 1) that one being is or isn't (Japanese vs American by proof) nor 2) that it is anything but an expression of a certain value that 'doesn't have to be shared' to be considered 'moral.'

In a nutshell 1) Morality is not and probably cannot be demonstrably absolute thus 2) Imposition of morality likewise cannot be a tangible litmus for anybody in particular except as circumstance portrays. A need for qualification like 'absolute moral' must be stated in order to push this thread forward.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thus suggestion for thread:

1)An 'absolute' moral is by definition 'absolute.'
2) God as a perfect Being would only and ever exibit 'proper behavior' as the expression of a perfect character. Such 'might' portray as immoral to one who does not possess perfection, but 'morality' in this case is the expression. When Scripture says God will 'bring evil upon' those who disobey, it may confuse those who do not realize 'morality' is not absolute but in the sense that God will 'act properly' toward all things, regardless of how such might look to a people who do not possess absolute perfection nor morality.
 

MarrionBallentine

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Was revisiting in the other thread. There is a difference between 'morality' and 'absolute morality.' We 'tend' to think of morality as 'absolute' but it isn't until 'absolute' is placed as the qualifier (seems like the point of discussion to me).
I think the word morality can have different connotations when viewed from a personal subjective position, which may be in agreement or different from anothers perspective.
However I do believe that when using the word moral as a descriptor relating to God, than yes, absolute morality (objective moral truth) is to be understood as the criterion.
 
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Clete

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I think the word morality can have different connotations when viewed from a personal subjective position, which may be in agreement or different from anothers perspective.
However I do believe that when using the word moral as a descriptor relating to God, than yes, absolute morality (objective moral truth) is to be understood as the criterion.
Said another way....

All words have a range of meaning. The actual meaning is determined by the context in which it used.

In short, changing the topic of discussion doesn't count as a rebuttal of an argument.
 

Lon

Well-known member
In short, changing the topic of discussion doesn't count as a rebuttal of an argument.
I think it can. There is a difference (and confusion) between 'absolute' vs arbitrary and "morals," at least in this thread: it provided for tertiary discussion.
 

inthebeginning

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Same as the current English translations might not use a proper interpretation of the Greek "logos" and this might be cause of misleading, same as well the same Greek word "logos" might be as well an erroneous interpretation of the original Hebrew or Aramaic language spoken by John.

In my opinion, the Gospels and other writings of the New Testament were in their majority written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is hard to me the acceptance of a fisher man like Peter who was Israelite and an Aramaic speaker person, writing his letters in so "perfect" Greek language. Same with John.

The use of "word" instead of "logic" in the current translations is more acceptable because languages are not to be translated word by word by as a context. And the use of "word" in John's Gospel, is to empathize the first verses of Genesis when it is read: ... and God said... God using words to create.

On the other hand, even when several attributes have been conceived to God are a common consensus, I do not find in the Bible any reference saying that God is moral. God is not the codes of behavior but the provider of them. Then, God is not moral itself but the provider of it.
 

Clete

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Same as the current English translations might not use a proper interpretation of the Greek "logos" and this might be cause of misleading, same as well the same Greek word "logos" might be as well an erroneous interpretation of the original Hebrew or Aramaic language spoken by John.

In my opinion, the Gospels and other writings of the New Testament were in their majority written in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is hard to me the acceptance of a fisher man like Peter who was Israelite and an Aramaic speaker person, writing his letters in so "perfect" Greek language. Same with John.

The use of "word" instead of "logic" in the current translations is more acceptable because languages are not to be translated word by word by as a context. And the use of "word" in John's Gospel, is to empathize the first verses of Genesis when it is read: ... and God said... God using words to create.

On the other hand, even when several attributes have been conceived to God are a common consensus, I do not find in the Bible any reference saying that God is moral. God is not the codes of behavior but the provider of them. Then, God is not moral itself but the provider of it.
The text defeats your argument by your own, quite correct, standard of translation being not woodenly "word for word" but by means of context. It is the ideas being expressed that should be converted into the other language not necessarily the dictionary definitions of particular words.

The context of the passage itself make it clear that the English term "word" does NOT convey the meaning of "logos".

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The "light" in verse 4 is not physical light as in "Let there be light" in Genesis 1. It is the light of understanding! This would have been COMPLETELY intuitive to anyone reading this passage in the very Hellenistic world of the first century Romans Empire - including Israel and whole surrounding region.

As for notion that the gospels and other writings of the New Testament were not originally written in Greek, the fact is that there’s no historical, textual, or linguistic evidence to support that claim.

Yes, the apostles were Jewish and yes, they spoke Aramaic (and likely Hebrew in formal or religious settings). That much is obvious. But Koine Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire. It was the language of commerce, education, and cross-cultural communication. If someone wanted to write something that would be read beyond the narrow confines of Judea, then Greek was the only language that would make sense to choose. And that’s precisely what we see.

Peter’s letters, for instance, are addressed to believers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. All of which were thoroughly Hellenized regions. John’s Revelation is addressed to seven churches in Asia Minor, likewise Greek-speaking. These men ministered for decades in Greek-speaking areas. It should not be surprising if they became fluent in the Greek language or that they employed scribes (which was common practice) to assist in composition. The style of Greek varies across New Testament books, which is exactly what we would expect from different authors, writing at different times, with different levels of education and perhaps different scribes.

What we don’t see, not even once, is an ancient manuscript of a New Testament book written in Hebrew or Aramaic. All of our oldest and best manuscripts are Greek. Every early church father who quoted the New Testament quoted it in Greek. And none of them ever said the originals were in Hebrew or Aramaic. If such documents ever existed, they vanished without a trace, left no influence on the textual tradition, left no evidence even in the Greek manuscripts that we have that they are translations from any other language, and were never mentioned by anyone in the early church. That’s not just unlikely; it’s completely implausible if not outright impossible.

Let’s not forget either that Luke, who wrote more of the New Testament than anyone, was a Greek-speaking Gentile. Paul was a Roman citizen and a highly educated Jew from the Greek city of Tarsus. Most of the epistles were written to Greek-speaking churches across the Roman Empire. This idea that the New Testament was primarily written in Hebrew or Aramaic is not only unsupported, it flies in the face of everything we actually know about the first-century world.

The Greek New Testament is not a translation of a Hebrew or Aramaic original. It is the original. If we’re going to take the text seriously, we need to stop trying to retrofit it to suit modern theories and just deal honestly with what the evidence shows.



P.S. Be sure to use the quote feature whenever you're responding to a post. It makes it MUCH more likely that your post will be seen by the person you're responding to.
 
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Right Divider

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Let’s not forget either that Luke, who wrote more of the New Testament than anyone, was a Greek-speaking Gentile.
Do you think that a single author of two books of the Bible was not an Jew?

I highly doubt it.
Rom 3:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? (3:2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

P.S. I know that you will probably beat me up for this post.
 

Clete

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Do you think that a single author of two books of the Bible was not an Jew?

I highly doubt it.
Rom 3:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? (3:2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

P.S. I know that you will probably beat me up for this post.
No, I won't beat you up at all. It's a very reasonable question.

It feels to me like I've just always known that Luke was a Gentile. I've never given it any specific thought prior to the research I did for this post. I suppose it's possible that he was a Jew and I don't think I would want to be dogmatic about it, but there's good reason to think he was not only a gentile but a member of the Body of Christ.

Take a look at this passage in Colossians...

Colossians 4:10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him), 11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision; they have proved to be a comfort to me.​
12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great [d]zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis. 14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you. 15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.​

Notice that Paul names Aristarchus, Mark, and Justus, and explicitly says they are of the circumcision. Then, in the verses that follow, he names Epaphras, Luke, and Demas without including them in that category. If Luke were Jewish, it would be very odd for Paul to make a point of saying that he had helpers who were of the circumcision and then fail to include him with the others in that group.

Also, everything we know about Luke comes from his association with Paul...
  • He first appears in Acts 16 during Paul's second missionary journey, indicated by the shift to “we” in the narrative (“we endeavored to go into Macedonia” – Acts 16:10).
  • He travels with Paul, remains with him during imprisonments, and is present during his final days (II Timothy 4:11).
  • There is no indication that Luke had a role during Christ’s earthly ministry or was part of the early Acts Jewish church.
That’s consistent with someone who was saved by Paul’s Gospel of Grace, not under the kingdom gospel.

Now, your point about a non-Jew being an author of the bible is an excellent point that I cannot directly refute aside from what I just presented. If the above reasoning holds, then Luke is the only known Gentile author of any biblical book. That’s definitely significant, but it also fits, doesn't it? Luke wrote the Gospel that emphasizes the universality of Christ’s mission and Acts documents the spread of the gospel from Jerusalem to the Gentile world.

This idea, however, would completely kill the notion that he is the author of Hebrews, which is a connection I had never put together until just now. And so, again, I would not be willing to be dogmatic about Luke being a Gentile.
 

Right Divider

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No, I won't beat you up at all. It's a very reasonable question.
Thanks, perhaps I overreacted in advance.
It feels to me like I've just always known that Luke was a Gentile. I've never given it any specific thought prior to the research I did for this post. I suppose it's possible that he was a Jew and I don't think I would want to be dogmatic about it, but there's good reason to think he was not only a gentile but a member of the Body of Christ.

Take a look at this passage in Colossians...

Colossians 4:10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him), 11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision; they have proved to be a comfort to me.​
12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great [d]zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis. 14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you. 15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.​

Notice that Paul names Aristarchus, Mark, and Justus, and explicitly says they are of the circumcision. Then, in the verses that follow, he names Epaphras, Luke, and Demas without including them in that category. If Luke were Jewish, it would be very odd for Paul to make a point of saying that he had helpers who were of the circumcision and then fail to include him with the others in that group.
I've heard this argument before and do not find it compelling.

Paul was not itemizing who was a gentile and who was a Jew.
Also, everything we know about Luke comes from his association with Paul...
  • He first appears in Acts 16 during Paul's second missionary journey, indicated by the shift to “we” in the narrative (“we endeavored to go into Macedonia” – Acts 16:10).
No, Luke was associating (and traveling with) the twelve et al during the events recorded in Acts 1-15. I don't see any other reason that he would have such an extensive knowledge of all the details in that part of Acts. I doubt that it would have all been gained from second hand accounts.

https://theologyonline.com/threads/luke-started-accompanying-paul-beginning-in-acts-16.52524/
  • He travels with Paul, remains with him during imprisonments, and is present during his final days (II Timothy 4:11).
Yes, after he began traveling with Paul instead of the twelve et al.
  • There is no indication that Luke had a role during Christ’s earthly ministry or was part of the early Acts Jewish church.
Except, of course, his detailed and extensive writings about that time and those events. Luke had very detailed knowledge of the Jewish people and their ways. From that, it seems more likely that he was a Jew than a gentile.
That’s consistent with someone who was saved by Paul’s Gospel of Grace, not under the kingdom gospel.
Not necessarily.
Now, your point about a non-Jew being an author of the bible is an excellent point that I cannot directly refute aside from what I just presented. If the above reasoning holds, then Luke is the only known Gentile author of any biblical book. That’s definitely significant, but it also fits, doesn't it? Luke wrote the Gospel that emphasizes the universality of Christ’s mission and Acts documents the spread of the gospel from Jerusalem to the Gentile world.
Personally, I find the idea that only 2 of 66 books of the Bible were written by a gentile to be dubious. Especially with Paul's mention of the Jews receiving the oracles of God.
This idea, however, would completely kill the notion that he is the author of Hebrews, which is a connection I had never put together until just now. And so, again, I would not be willing to be dogmatic about Luke being a Gentile.
I also am not going to dogmatically claim that I know that Luke was not a gentile. But I believe that he was a Jew.
 
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