Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?

Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?


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drbrumley

Well-known member
Why Do Some People Seemingly Love Abortion?

Laurence M. Vance


Regarding my post on the hypocrisy of the GOP when it comes to abortion, someone writes to tell me that prosecuting abortion providers and patients would be “the greatest invasion of personal freedom ever.” Ever? Even you are a libertarian who is pro-choice, would this be the greatest invasion ever? I can’t imagine anyone saying such a thing unless they just loved abortion and recommend it to every woman they met.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Abortion is ‘Freedom’

Ryan McMaken

Laurence, for some people, attacking the “freedom” to abuse other, often defenseless, people is “the greatest invasion of personal freedom ever.” The slave-drivers certainly believed that:


The parties in this conflict are not merely abolitionists and slaveholders—they are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, jacobins, on one side, and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other.

The difference is this: abortionists believe that your age can render you an unperson. For others, it’s your skin color.
 

Ecumenicist

New member
And for others, its being a pregnant woman...


Abortion is ‘Freedom’

Ryan McMaken

Laurence, for some people, attacking the “freedom” to abuse other, often defenseless, people is “the greatest invasion of personal freedom ever.” The slave-drivers certainly believed that:


The parties in this conflict are not merely abolitionists and slaveholders—they are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, jacobins, on one side, and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other.

The difference is this: abortionists believe that your age can render you an unperson. For others, it’s your skin color.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Why Do Some People Seemingly Love Abortion?
No one loves abortion, and no one "seemingly" loves it, either. When you post things like this, you look like an ignoramus. Because only an ignoramus would believe that anyone "loves abortion".
 

PureX

Well-known member
Abortion is ‘Freedom’

Ryan McMaken

Laurence, for some people, attacking the “freedom” to abuse other, often defenseless, people is “the greatest invasion of personal freedom ever.” The slave-drivers certainly believed that:


The parties in this conflict are not merely abolitionists and slaveholders—they are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, jacobins, on one side, and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other.

The difference is this: abortionists believe that your age can render you an unperson. For others, it’s your skin color.
I guess since you can't find anyone here to say something stupid enough for you to argue with, you had to dig up and post quotes from others for you to argue with.

Have you ever heard of a "straw man"? Because that's what you're setting up, here, and then knocking down. It's a pretty foolish way to win an argument.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
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No one loves abortion, and no one "seemingly" loves it, either. When you post things like this, you look like an ignoramus. Because only an ignoramus would believe that anyone "loves abortion".

They certainly love having *access* to abortion. Most hardline pro-abortion advocates wish to have no regulations. Thus no accountability.

Why do you suppose that is?
 

PureX

Well-known member
They certainly love having *access* to abortion.
Who is "they"? I have never met anyone in my entire life that "loves having access to abortion", or has ever claimed to love it.
Most hardline pro-abortion advocates wish to have no regulations. Thus no accountability.
These are a figment of your imagination. I have never in my life met anyone who wishes there were no restriction whatever on the practice of abortion, and I don't believe there is anyone who is stupid enough to wish for this.
Why do you suppose that is?
I don't suppose it is. What I'm supposing is that you're making this all up in your mind and then projecting your anger at these imaginary abortion loving, baby-murdering, death advocates. Although why you're doing this is completely beyond my comprehension.
 

IMJerusha

New member
There are theological and biblical precedents for recognizing the rights of individuals to control their own bodies and well being as well as "protecting innocents," which seems to be the biblical argument against abortion. (Are not women innocent as well in the cases of rape and incest? How do those scriptures apply to them?) There are also biblical theological precedents against dehumanizing individuals, again it could be argued that they apply to both women and fetuses.

Keeping the discussion to just legalize and science dehumanizes both women and the unborn, as being human means more than just having a heartbeat. This could be a great theological discussion about the nature of Spirit, the nature of Life, the nature of God's relationship with women and their children, and men as parents as well.

Interesting. What exactly does Scripture have to say about a woman's right to control her body?

Something else that should be noted is that Scripture doesn't cover women who aren't under the headship of a man except in one aspect, yet that is what women have striven for....liberation. Had I been where I should have been, Scripturally, I wouldn't have been raped. Of course, that's not true of every female rape victim. Still...something to think about, how God's plan and woman's desires don't always seem to jive. Such has been the case since the first woman.
 

IMJerusha

New member
No one loves abortion, and no one "seemingly" loves it, either. When you post things like this, you look like an ignoramus. Because only an ignoramus would believe that anyone "loves abortion".

Speaking of ignorance, do you know what tokophobia is? Some tokophobics literally love abortion or just knowing they have access to it. It's a protection mechanism.
 

Rusha

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Who is "they"? I have never met anyone in my entire life that "loves having access to abortion", or has ever claimed to love it.

These are a figment of your imagination. I have never in my life met anyone who wishes there were no restriction whatever on the practice of abortion, and I don't believe there is anyone who is stupid enough to wish for this.
I don't suppose it is. What I'm supposing is that you're making this all up in your mind and then projecting your anger at these imaginary abortion loving, baby-murdering, death advocates. Although why you're doing this is completely beyond my comprehension.

Rigggtttt. No one loves having access to abortion.

Jezebel1 said:
I personally have no qualms with late term abortion for other people. I don't care.

Oh wait. I made that up. Or must have imagined it. :plain:
 

Jezebel

New member
If a woman should never have to give up her bodily autonomy in favor of the fetus how can you justify criminalizing late-term abortions?
When did I say I'd criminalize them.?
If you don't want to outlaw late-term abortion then you'll have to present your justification.

If a woman should never have to give up her bodily autonomy in favor of the fetus then what middle ground do you feel you are offering?

You cannot say that a woman should never have to give up her bodily autonomy in favor of the fetus and also say that you're offering middle ground. They are mutually exclusive statements.
I'm not even going to bother anymore. I've outlined this for you more then once, explained why they aren't mutually exclusive and outlined what I think bodily autonomy for the woman is in the case of abortion. However you keep ignoring all of what I said and repeating the same thing over and over again because you don't like that I won't give you the answer you want.


Women are currently forced to keep it inside if they are too far along to abort. Is this unfair in your view?
Yes.



I have shown that they are so there's that.
Except you haven't. At all.

:sigh:
Take your pick.
Well I pretty much outlined what I think the law should to Rusha but personally I think they're unnecessary given that the fetus could be delivered alive and turned over to the hospital at no inconvenience to the mother.


It's a terrible analogy. If a woman is beyond week X she is obligated to let the fetus use her organs to sustain itself, legally speaking.
That depends on the state.
Do you find this unfair as well?
Yes.

And, if she died (completely not just brain dead) the fetus would die as well.
It's possible for you to be forced to choose between aborting or the mother survival. For example, women with cancer that need chemotherapy. Should they be denied chemo until they give birth?

Why is abortion okay to save the mother's life?

I told you what I think the law should be, feticide. She deserves to be charged with feticide if she self-aborts. The sentence would depend on a variety of factors that I had previously laid out. Does she have a prior criminal record? How did she abort? Did she confess? Did she reject a plea deal with the DA? et al.

How about this, She's 19, no prior criminal record and rejected a plea deal with the DA. She was 5 weeks pregnant and aborted by ordering mifepristone of the internet.

You're the judge. How many years?

Also, if you were the DA what kind of plea deal would you give her?


I am content with the charge of feticide. If a drunk driver hits a car and the pregnant woman in that car loses her 4 week old fetus, what, if anything, should the driver be charged with?

Whatever a person would usually be charged with if they seriously injured someone in a drunk driving accident. I don't believe they should be charged with "murder" if that's what you're asking.

I don't think feticide should even be a charge.

I already have...repeatedly. I would charge them with feticide. I believe it is feticide so that is what I would charge them with. If a woman hires a hitman to kill another woman's baby, I would charge them both with......:idea: feticide ;)

Around how many years should she get? Is the death penalty a possibility?



What if she hires a hitman to shoot her newborn in the face? What should the charge be then? Again, why not murder? You do believe abortion is murder correct? Why are you content with feticide if these women are no different then people who murder their newborns?

So killing a fetus is different then killing a born child? The murder of a fetus isn't as important as the murder of a living person?
 

Jezebel

New member
Then WHY would your *feelings* change about having a late term abortion yourself?

IF you truly feel there is nothing wrong with it, you would have stated "I would have no problem with having an abortion at nine months".
Just because I feel something is wrong doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.
Your *feelings* have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not killing your unborn child is okay.
You asked me why I wouldn't have a late term abortion and I told you. I don't care whether or not you think it's okay.


IF we based everything on *feelings*, then going by your standard, a rapist would have every right to say "well it was fine that I committed that rape because I felt like it".
Um no. Rapists aren't entitled to their victims bodies. It shouldn't be legal to use people's bodies against their will.

IF you wish to make a case of why it is okay for a physician to perform abortion on fully formed babies at the mother's request, then do so.
Have you completely ignored the conversation between me and WizardofOZ?
There is a reason you made a point of claiming late term abortion might not be right for you.

Because they wouldn't be. I don't understand what point you think you're making.
 

Jezebel

New member
No thank you. I have never bought into that excuse. I don't believe there is much concern about health at all. This is about women making excuses to not be responsible for the life they willingly participated in creating.

Why do you keep including this when you've already stated even rape victims shouldn't be allowed to have abortions. "Willingly participated in creating" is irrelevant in your eyes isn't it?
 

journey

New member
I think that people considering an abortion should HAVE to watch a full-color video of the same procedure done earlier on someone else. I've watched a variety of available videos, and they are barbaric to say the least. It's hard to believe that someone with a heart would consider doing it. They might also want to see what they do with all of the dead babies, and it is obvious they are dead human beings. We are now a cruel and heartless society that has brutally murdered over 50 million babies. I have a good idea about what God thinks about this. We should know that God has a soft part in His heart for children.

Matthew 18:2-6 KJV And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

Rusha

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Why do you keep including this when you've already stated even rape victims shouldn't be allowed to have abortions. "Willingly participated in creating" is irrelevant in your eyes isn't it?

Yes it is ... because it doesn't change the FACT that an innocent, unborn human being is being executed by no fault of his/her own.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Amen!! As I always say, you don't punish a rapist by murdering an innocent child.
Of course not. You punish the victim by forcing her to carry his baby.
We all have crosses to bear in life.
Its sad that you think a beautiful new life is somehow a punishment.

A good person takes something bad and makes good come of it. That child could bless a family seeking to adopt.

You see, people like you just want to kill and destroy. It never crosses your mind that this beautiful baby could actually be a blessing to a family, that good can come out of an evil act. The miracle and gift of life does not even register to you who dwell in darkness.
 
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