Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Lighthouse]

You realize, I hope, that it is proven by all the higher maths. They all come up with the same equation. To then say 'at best an assumption' is compensating, imho. It is theoretically sound (meaning we can't do it, but it works on paper). The same was again, once said of going to the moon. It was always theoretical until it was accomplished. Just because something isn't accomplished does not mean it is an assumption by any stretch. It is a sound logical theory that works on paper very well.

I've heard Communism works on paper too.

Until it's done it isn't proven doable.

Wow, you could have PM'ed me, thank you for sharing this.

It's already public knowledge. But unlike psychopaths I can have passion and show emotion. It's just not as easy for me to control my emotions, or to be emotional in all the normal circumstances.

So no 2+2=4, gotcha.

:doh:

2x2=4, also.

I believe John 8:58 does exactly this.

And you would be wrong. I've already explained this to someone in one of these open view threads. Jesus was referencing what He told Moses from the burning bush, "I AM THAT I AM." It means a consistent state of being; It's a way of saying He always was, is and always will be.

 

[MarkA]

perhaps people are conceiving time as a straight line,

when in fact it is many lines branching out into many different directions all created from a single beginning.

there is no need for God to "change his plan" or "change his mind" all realities and contingencies where created from the beginning and the reality we are in is but one of millions, billions or more of already created possibilities.
God ceased from all his creation on the 7th day if the Bible is to believed.

Toucan Sam called.

M-theory answered.

P.S.
The Bible says God rested from creation on the seventh day; it does not say He ceased creating forevermore at that point.

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

:hammer:

 

[Lighthouse]

M-theory answered.

What?

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

:hammer:

What of it?

 

[Lon]

I've heard Communism works on paper too.

Until it's done it isn't proven doable.

Well, if God were in charge of that too? I'm trying to remember who said that, I think it was Churchill.

It's already public knowledge. But unlike psychopaths I can have passion and show emotion. It's just not as easy for me to control my emotions, or to be emotional in all the normal circumstances.

And again, thanks. I had no idea.

:doh:

2x2=4, also.


And you would be wrong. I've already explained this to someone in one of these open view threads. Jesus was referencing what He told Moses from the burning bush, "I AM THAT I AM." It means a consistent state of being; It's a way of saying He always was, is and always will be.

I agree, but in that concession, I believe one has to understand God as being in complete control of the past present and future.
Having complete control of the present, for instance, means the past is already exactly as He has made it. Such admissions, in my mind at least, necessarily mean He's more in control than the OV admission. It gets into predestination, but even by OV standards, God has to be what they call "Omnicompetent." You might not understand that it is an admission of predestination work, but it certainly points that direction and strongly. Such an admission of "Omnicompetence" says "God is in control, else He'd only be 'somewhat or mostly competent." There is no logical way out of this OV dilemma as far as I've ever seen. Every admission points back to a God who easily manipulates time on His own competence levels. I know what Open Theism is 'trying' to do, they just aren't doing it because the concessions point back to an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.

***************************************************************

Here is yet another way the past is surmountable by God: By His sheer power, He could create the present to reflect an entirely different past than what we know. Everybody agrees He is capable. Where we disagree is if such actually does anything to the past. I say it does because the past is completely erased, then, and an entirely different past is put in its place: literally replacing the old past. Some argue that the past that was there is still 'past' but the problem is that an 'entirely different' past 'now' exists. Thus, God is, by sheer power, able to change the past. This cannot be said to be theory or conjecture. It is an admission that even the open theist must make, else God could not have had enough power to create the initial existence we'd know in the first-place. It is more of an Open View point than the traditional theological one because we traditional theists take this truth already for granted under the "omni's." It is, actually, an Open Theism proof.

 

[Lighthouse]

I agree, but in that concession, I believe one has to understand God as being in complete control of the past present and future.
Having complete control of the present, for instance, means the past is already exactly as He has made it. Such admissions, in my mind at least, necessarily mean He's more in control than the OV admission. It gets into predestination, but even by OV standards, God has to be what they call "Omnicompetent." You might not understand that it is an admission of predestination work, but it certainly points that direction and strongly. Such an admission of "Omnicompetence" says "God is in control, else He'd only be 'somewhat or mostly competent." There is no logical way out of this OV dilemma as far as I've ever seen. Every admission points back to a God who easily manipulates time on His own competence levels. I know what Open Theism is 'trying' to do, they just aren't doing it because the concessions point back to an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.

***************************************************************

Here is yet another way the past is surmountable by God: By His sheer power, He could create the present to reflect an entirely different past than what we know. Everybody agrees He is capable. Where we disagree is if such actually does anything to the past. I say it does because the past is completely erased, then, and an entirely different past is put in its place: literally replacing the old past. Some argue that the past that was there is still 'past' but the problem is that an 'entirely different' past 'now' exists. Thus, God is, by sheer power, able to change the past. This cannot be said to be theory or conjecture. It is an admission that even the open theist must make, else God could not have had enough power to create the initial existence we'd know in the first-place. It is more of an Open View point than the traditional theological one because we traditional theists take this truth already for granted under the "omni's." It is, actually, an Open Theism proof.

Um... no. God is unable to change the past.

 

[godrulz]

Um... no. God is unable to change the past.

Yes, the past is fixed, the future is at least partially open. Only the present is actual/real.

 

[Letsargue]

Yes, the past is fixed, the future is at least partially open. Only the present is actual/real.

There is NO More changing anything of God. God has already said ALL He’s going to say from Heaven. It’s all in the Scriptures now, and there will NEVER Be another Script written for ever.

No more TIME!!!

Paul – 071813

 

[sky.]

The only proof in the Bible about time is that God is the
Author of time from beginning to end, unless you think It is fiction.

 

[Ps82]

How can God be outside of time when he considered to be omni-present, eternal, and infinite?

 

[sky.]

How can God be outside of time when he considered to be omni-present, eternal, and infinite?

Infinite means all time. The word isn't that complicated when it comes to God unless someone doesn't know Who God Is. If the God of the Bible isn't infinite all knowing, then one has set Him up for competition.

 

[oatmeal]

Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:

In the "eternal state" before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the SON OF MAN; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).
Many theologians reject this proof that God is in time. Why? They claim that their historical-grammatical hermeneutic, that is, their primary method of interpretation, proves that God is not in time. So let's look at the relationship of God and time.

When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks.

By "the Greek" there, I meant pagan Greek philosophy (and pagan Hinduism, etc.). In contrast, the Bible's Hebrew and Greek terms are TOTALLY different. They all speak of God existing through unending duration and everlasting amounts of time. The above terms are foreign to the student of God's Word, whereas the Bible's terms are all so very familiar from our Scripture reading. Even though typically translated by those who claim that God is outside of time, yet still, the Bible's many descriptions present God as existing in a never-ending sequence of time.

When Reading Your Bible about God and Time, We See that God is:

Everlasting - From of old - Before ever He had formed the earth - The Ancient of Days - Before the world was - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - He continues forever - Immortal - Remains forever - Forever and ever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - God who is - Alive forevermore - Who was - Who is to come - Always lives - Forever - In the age to come - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.

Of course ALL THESE are verbatim quotes from Scripture and NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS. The scores of passages represented from these phrases teach the opposite of pagan Plato's claim that God has "no past" and "no future." Open Theism claims that the future is open (and not settled) because God is free and eternally creative and will always have new thoughts. The Settled View claims that the future is utterly and exhaustively settled and its advocates includes all Calvinist and Arminian theologians. These Settled View adherents interpret ALL scripture about God and time as a FIGURE OF SPEECH. But they take Plato literally. Why?
The human philosophy of the pagan Greeks (which Augustine admited that he adapted to Christian theology), assumes that God exists outside of time, something the language of Scripture could easily present if that were God's intention.

The Above Proof By Proof Texts: Let's demonstrate the above proof again this time using only Bible excerpts. Those who claim that God is outside of time also frequently use the unbiblical phrase, "the eternal state." Actually, every moment is in the eternal state, including those moments before creation, all those since, and including those that will follow the New Creation. The following purely scriptural phrases show that in the "eternal state," WHO GOD WAS in eternity past differs from WHO GOD IS now and in eternity future. The differences do not include anythink like an abandonment of His fundamental attributes (which are that He is Living, Personal, Relational, Good, and Loving), but rather, they are divine expressions of these attributes. For:

"The Father… is Spirit" and "invisible," "from of old… from everlasting," just "like the Son of God," who "loved [the Son] before the foundation of the world." Yet "God was manifested in the flesh" for "the Word BECAME flesh," having "partaken of flesh and blood," and "coming in the likeness of men" "to be made like His brethren." So "He is the SON OF MAN," "from the seed of David," "Jesus Christ… the Son of Abraham." And "this MAN, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." And "He ever lives to make intercession," for "the Mediator between God and men" is "the MAN Christ Jesus." So "God… will judge the world… by the MAN whom He has ordained," and "in the regeneration… the SON OF MAN sits on the throne of His glory."

The second person of the Trinity, God the Son, was not OF MAN through eternity past. Neither David, nor Adam, nor any of us, were necessary for God to be God. But the second person of the Trinity is now Jesus, the SON OF MAN. But willing to trade away God's freedom, holiness, and a thousand literal Bible verses, many theologians will sacrifice the greatest truths of Scripture for Platonic immutability. (Some Christians even say that they would reject Christ if God had actual freedom.) As we've seen in the "comment thread" to Bob Enyart's Open Theism Debate with the president of The North American Reformed Seminary, a reader responding to our own BEL producer Will Duffy, wrote:

"Jesus Christ is God and man, he is both, he has eternally existed as both."
Christians desperate to win an argument that God is outside of time will even flirt with the unbiblical claim that God the Son was always a man, from eternity past. However, regarding the extension of humanity onto God the Son Himself through the incarnation, there is a divine chronological order. For:

"...the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth… the second Man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Cor. 15:46

But theologians committed to the Settled View handle this verse like they do a thousand others. They turn it into a figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the passage naturally states. If they were correct in this, then of course Christians could we can safely ignore the evident teaching of this and many other such passages. But in truth, Jesus was the Son of God from eternity past, and He became forever the Son of Man only at the Incarnation. For remember that writing in Genesis Moses introduced Melchizedek without parents making it appear that He had no beginning, "like the Son of God" (Heb. 7:3).

The Son of Man: As men, we probably would never pick the same title for Jesus as is His favorite title for Himself, "the Son of Man." That title seems almost common to us, because we are all sons of man. But He took that title for Himself after much humbling and lowering and emptying of Himself. That title, the Son of Man, is precious to Him because it cost Him so much. But many theologians reject that the Incarnation shows change in God, as demonstrated in the TNARS Open Theism debate (mentioned above). In defending their position, such theologians claim that Open Theists confuse Christ's humanity with His divinity. However, there are not four persons of the trinity, as is implied by such objections. His humanity did not become human. It is the eternal God the Son who became flesh.

To defend Platonic utter immutability those who hold the Settled View will deny that God has the freedom even to think new thoughts. So what do they get in trade for God's freedom? They can claim that before the criminal was ever born, God decided how often to rape that child and how filthy each time would be, "all for His glory and pleasure" including the rapist being beat to death in prison. The fact that God says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezek. 33:11) is irrelevant because it's all a double figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the text says, as we can see from the sad reality that many theologians believe that God did ordain the rape, and the beating death, "for His pleasure." And they even claim that God is impassible, that is, that He can have no emotion or passion, for in contrast to a hundred verses in Scripture, John Calvin wrote that God is, "incapable of every feeling." So when God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, they claim really that He can have NO pleasure whatsoever. Yes, God's ways are higher than our ways. But they're not lower. He doesn't take pleasure from adultery.

When pressed, as in the above debate, many theologians will admit that Sovereignty is NOT an eternal attribute of God. That is a valid position, for otherwise, God's very existence would be dependent upon the creation. Just as Adam is not necessary for God to be God (as he would have been if the Son of God were also the Son of Man, eternally) so too if the quantitative attribute of exhaustive foreknowledge is required for God to be God, then the one reading this sentence at this very moment would also be a necessary prerequisite for God to be God, for God could not then exist apart from each and every one of us being and doing and thinking everything in fact that we've been and done and thought. For if our existence is necessary in His mind eternally for Him to be God, then in a fundamental way we are also eternally necessary for God's very existence, and He then could not be God without me. This is a twisted theological perversion. Such notions diminish God. And they bring the Christian into absurdities like praying to change the past. After all, if God is outside of time, then there is no difference to God in prayers for the future and those for the past, in praying for those living today and for those who died yesterday. Christians find themselves battling the same absurdities as time traveling science fiction characters. Coming back to reality though, even in sovereignty we see God changing. For in eternity past He was not sovereign. Yet after He returns "in His own time" as "the King of kings" (1 Tim. 6:15) He will reign Sovereign in His kingdom that will never end (Isaiah 9:7).

Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the orginal language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

- "Time shall be no more" (Rev. 10:6; hymns) is corrected even by Calvinist translators in virtually all modern versions as is also made overtly clear from the text and the context, "There will be no more delay!"
- "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall have be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millenia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (See a similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32.) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and sub-title of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain.

There is Time in Heaven: When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).

- When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18).
- …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2).

- But this Man, AFTER He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… FROM THAT TIME WAITING TILL His enemies are [defeated] (Heb. 10:12-13).

- [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).
If the TRUE perspective is God's ETERNAL NOW, then David is now killing Bathsheba’s husband, each believer is still in his sin, and the Father is right now pouring out wrath on His Son, right now. But this is false for Hebrews says that Jesus suffered "once for all."

Neither men nor angles can be omnipresent, even in heaven, for they would thereby have to be divine. The same limitation would apply with timelessness. If God existed outside of time the angels before His throne ("who do not rest… saying, 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come'") and the men ministering to Him forever would also have to be timeless, which would mean that they were divine also. And Jesus said we shall receive much "in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life" (Luke 18:30), and as for things that can happen, as He said in a parable, some things happen "by chance" (Luke 10:31). And "In the beginning" does not mean in the beginning of time, for that's Augustine's interpretation based on Plato, but we have the Lord's interpretation based on Mark, for as Jesus said, the phrase means in "the beginning OF CREATION" (Mk. 10:6; Mat. 19:4).

God did many things before creation (John 17:24, 5; Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:20; Eph. 1:4) and His children shall "endure forever" (Ps. 39:36) enjoying God eternally through an "everlasting covenant" (Gen. 17:7), "established forever." So the Bible teaches that God is in time. And a foundation of the Settled View is seen to be heavily based on human philosophy and contradicted by the entirety of the relevant biblical material.

By Bob Enyart, KGOV.com &
Pastor, Denver Bible Church

For your convenience we have created a short link for this article at http://bit.ly/godandtime

Before God created the heavens and the earth was there time?

or just eternity?

Did God create the heavens and earth as something larger than himself or something smaller than himself?

Is the thing God created bigger than God himself so that God has no choice but to live within His creation?

 

[sky.]

Before God created the heavens and the earth was there time?

or just eternity?

Did God create the heavens and earth as something larger than himself or something smaller than himself?

Is the thing God created bigger than God himself so that God has no choice but to live within His creation?

For someone to even pose that question and try to answer it is like saying, "who created God". Well guess what a Christian doesn't engage in that. They already know.

Who created God?...He just IS.

 

[sky.]

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

In sales this type of question is what's called a "hook" or "pinging for pain". Not even Christian.

 

[Ps82]

How can God be outside of time when he considered to be omni-present, eternal, and infinite?

 

[Lighthouse]

How can God be outside of time when he considered to be omni-present, eternal, and infinite?

In order for God to be in or out of anything that thing must first exist dimensionally; time does not exist in that manner.

Before God created the heavens and the earth was there time?

or just eternity?

Same thing. Eternity is time, time is eternity.

Did God create the heavens and earth as something larger than himself or something smaller than himself?

Irrelevant, unless you equate Heaven and Earth with time.

Is the thing God created bigger than God himself so that God has no choice but to live within His creation?

You are assuming time was created; it was not.

 

[Ps82]

In order for God to be in or out of anything that thing must first exist dimensionally; time does not exist in that manner.


Same thing. Eternity is time, time is eternity.


Irrelevant, unless you equate Heaven and Earth with time.


You are assuming time was created; it was not.

You have made a few statements that are questionable.
You said"

In order for God to be in or out of anything that thing must first exist dimensionally; time does not exist in that manner.

I ask you ... who is the creator? Who existed even before anything that you and I comprehend - existed? Do you understand the concept of eternal? Why do you think that time or anything dimensional thing existed before God?

I suggest that you are putting the cart before the horse.

I suggest that God existed before the TIME in which you and I exist. Eternity includes our "time," but also includes before and after our time.

Time for us began when we were created ... but infinity ... well it is what it is!

 

[Lighthouse]

You have made a few statements that are questionable.
You said"

I ask you ... who is the creator? Who existed even before anything that you and I comprehend - existed? Do you understand the concept of eternal? Why do you think that time or anything dimensional thing existed before God?

Time is not dimensional. Were you not paying attention?

I suggest that you are putting the cart before the horse.

And I suggest you're assuming things that simply are not true.

I suggest that God existed before the TIME in which you and I exist. Eternity includes our "time," but also includes before and after our time.

And I don't deny this. In fact, I affirm it.

Time for us began when we were created ... but infinity ... well it is what it is!

No argument here.

 

[Ps82]

Time is not dimensional. Were you not paying attention?


And I suggest you're assuming things that simply are not true.


And I don't deny this. In fact, I affirm it.


No argument here.

I ask you: Who created dimensions? Read Genesis 1 and you will find who created everything. Time is no thing that precedes or negates God's eternal existence.

 

[Lighthouse]

I ask you: Who created dimensions? Read Genesis 1 and you will find who created everything. Time is no thing that precedes or negates God's eternal existence.

:sozo: Time is not a dimension!

How many times do I have to say that?

Time is, as God is. God experiences the passing of moments, and the duration of those moments. Time has been as long as God has been.

I never even tried to make the argument that it preceded Him, or negated Him. Get your head out of your derriere.

 

[Ps82]

:sozo: Time is not a dimension!

How many times do I have to say that?

Time is, as God is. God experiences the passing of moments, and the duration of those moments. Time has been as long as God has been.

I never even tried to make the argument that it preceded Him, or negated Him. Get your head out of your derriere.

Well, I jumped into this conversation ... and I am glad to read your opinion... yet I say that God is not affected by time ... except in regards to his plans for his creation. Time only matters to God when it relates to the evolution of his what he has willed to be.