Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Aimiel]

How is that logical? He is subject to love, is He not? And the Bible tells us He is love. Can you show that He is not also time? That time is not one of his attributes?

Time is a defining parameter of this physical / temporal realm. He is Spirit. He is neither subject to gravity, time or distance.

But you argued that He never changes in any capacity.

He doesn't. His appearance to us changes, He's merely showing us a different facet of Who He is, not becoming anything different or even acting. He is. He is all He needs to be. He is all that He is.

Where do you get that He is the beginning and end of time? The verse in question holds no reference to time. You are arguing from silence. The idea that He is above time is also an argument from silence.

He does His best speaking from silence.

Then you're not looking hard enough.

Romans 5:4
Philippians 2:22

I agree: those verses certainly have the word, "character," in them... but that doesn't mean that He wants us to think that when He said that He never changes that He meant only His Character is what never changes. You're trying to put words in His Mouth when you do that. He never changes. He does not change. No facet of Him ever changes. He doesn't even have a shadow of turning.

Has he ever repented of something He said He would do, or thought to do?

You want to argue that God using a figure of speech to make a point to someone makes Him 'changeable?' I don't buy it. He is not a son of Adam that He needs to repent. He doesn't make mistakes.

Here's one for you: Did God know what Adam would name the animals before He brought them to Adam to name?

He knows the total number of molecules, photons and quarks in the entire universe. He knew the path of every single one before they were created. He knew exactly what I would type this morning before He set the sun in the sky.

This doesn't support any of your argument. It doesn't state that God simply knows what will happen, it states that when God declares something He will make it happen.

I don't buy that. I believe He knows every single thing. He wouldn't be God if He didn't. He'd be powerless and weak. He'd have to watch CNN to find out what happened every day. God doesn't watch TV. He doesn't own a watch. He knows all.

We know that He did something at some point, so it is illogical to assume, or attempt to argue, that He did nothing prior to that.

God is eternal. He is not growing or changing. He is the same. The creation has time as one of its attributes. God does not.

 

[Aimiel]

"Time" literally, is a segment and finite.
There is no logical way out of that.

Precisely. God cannot be subject to time and infinite at the same time. He is above / before time and will always be.

 

[Letsargue]

Precisely. God cannot be subject to time and infinite at the same time. He is above / before time and will always be.

WOW!!! - What does it take for some of YOU!!!!

Come ON!!! – ( Time ) is not Anything of itself!! - Time is the (( COMPARISON OF EVENTS )); - short and longer events. (( Day to Year )); - or do you not know what a (( Day )) and a (( Year )) is!!!?? – ((( - Events -!!!! ))) – Movements to different movements, Compared!!! – All things exists in motion, and different motions of the other comparisons.

There Could (( not ever have been the ( First Motion, or Movement ) of anything )), and there (( Cannot ever be the Last Motion, or movement of Everything ))!! – (((( Or you ( Do Away ) With God )))) , ( All Things just Renews itself continually by motion / GOD )!!! - READ IT!!!! --- Genesis 1:2 KJV --- 2- “And ((( the “EARTH” was without “Form, and Void” ))); and (( darkness was upon the “FACE” )) of the deep. And the ((((( Spirit of God --((( MOVED )))) upon the “FACE” ))))) of the waters”. ---///---

( How can it be Possible that you all are SOOO Unlearned, or Read, ( And self-centered ) that you can’t get that by just reading it??? – How can that Be??? --- It’s Impossible to miss that, if you Love the ( “Word” ) / the Truth / Christ / GOD; - and Read God’s MIND / Christ / the Word / ( The CREATION )!!! --- ( Psalms 19:1 KJV ) ---&--- ( Psalms 97:6 KJV ) ---//--- ((( God Just says it )))!!!!!

Paul – 070813

 

[godrulz]

Precisely. God cannot be subject to time and infinite at the same time. He is above / before time and will always be.

Time is not space...above/in is spatial. God is not above time because time is a concept of duration/sequence/succession, not a created thing.

 

[Aimiel]

I don't mean above as in direction, but as in hierarchy. God is above all. Were He subject to time it would mean that time is above Him and rules over Him. If that were the case, He would always be racing against the clock. He doesn't sweat because He knows everything long before it happens. He planned every second before He started this universe spinning. One day He will put the heavens away in a drawer, neatly folded.

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't disagree with you. Heck, I happen to think its very possible that the angels lived some sort of life on earth between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (I don't necessarily believe this, but I think its very possible). The Earth was "Without form, and void" which to me implied that it already existed and that it is likely something lived on it before we did.

I was just curious what scriptural text you were using to suggest that God did something before Genesis 1:1, I was playing devil's advocate, not seriously disagreeing.

I know.

In any event, regarding the whole open theist thing, if God were stuck in time and couldn't see the future, how would he really be God? I mean, isn't "All powerful" kind of in the definition of God? Omnipotent?

Who is more powerful: the one who can see the future and can't change it or the one who can bring about whatever they choose even against the odds of truly free creatures doing whatever they please within their power?

Secondly, if God can't see the future, couldn't he make mistakes? And if he could, why should we listen to him? Granted, I get that God could just zap us if he really wanted to, but considering he is a loving God, I seriously doubt that would be his answer if I honestly asked him that question. If he's fallible, why should we listen to him?

Inability to see that which does not exist does not equate to fallibility; it is His ability to work His will within that framework regardless of the unknown free decisions and actions we make that show Him to be of the utmost potency and infallibility.

What mistakes could He even possibly make simply by not being able to know that which is non-extant?

Third: How does prophecy work without foreknowledge of the future? Could a prophecy have theoretically failed if God didn't know the future? How did God know the Roman soldiers would crucify his son anyway? Couldn't they have chosen not to? How did God know they would?

What part of "I will bring it to pass," do you not understand?

And even in the events that He did not need to intervene to bring to pass the only requirement was that He had the necessary present knowledge to know the hearts and minds of those involved and thus what they would do in the given circumstances, mostly based on their past actions in similar circumstances.

Even if there's no particular scriptural text that says "God is outside of time" I still think that's the logical principle considering that God is omnipotent, perfect, and can clearly tell the future via prophecy.

Can you back up the idea that God clearly tells the future in any event wherein He did not directly intervene to make it so, or the past and present did not inform the certainty of the future scenario?

No, there are an infinite number of points in a segment, not a line.

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with Einstein, but I fail to see how this statement is logical.

If you assign one point, you no longer have a line, but two rays. If you assign a second, you no longer have two rays, but a segment (Einstein saying the number is infinite means 'meaningless.' He was explaining the problem of measurement (assigning points).

So?

There is no way, at all, you can place a point on an eternal past. We have no language to even express this fact. An eternal past, in our language and understanding is still going. Doesn't make sense, but there you are.

What of it?

Just because we may not understand it doesn't mean it is outside of possibility.

"IF" you try and say God is only in Time, you literally deny He is eternal. There is no way out of it. If you say one, you are saying the other.

Prove it.

These two are mutually exclusive statements.

Prove it.

"Time" literally, is a segment and finite.

There is no logical way out of that.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Can you actually make this argument or are you only able to spout your position without supporting it?

Forget a foundation of sand, you have no foundation at all displayed here.

Time is a defining parameter of this physical / temporal realm. He is Spirit. He is neither subject to gravity, time or distance.

Care to support this claim?

He doesn't. His appearance to us changes, He's merely showing us a different facet of Who He is, not becoming anything different or even acting. He is. He is all He needs to be. He is all that He is.

Scripture?

He does His best speaking from silence.

This is just pathetic. You probably live all alone if you think this is effective communication.

I agree: those verses certainly have the word, "character," in them... but that doesn't mean that He wants us to think that when He said that He never changes that He meant only His Character is what never changes. You're trying to put words in His Mouth when you do that. He never changes. He does not change. No facet of Him ever changes. He doesn't even have a shadow of turning.

And you still haven't provided a single passage or verse of Scripture to back any of this up. You're just a lonely old man deluded in thinking himself a prophet; sadly because you think anyone who speaks His word is such, but you fail to provide His word to support any of your arguments.

You want to argue that God using a figure of speech to make a point to someone makes Him 'changeable?' I don't buy it. He is not a son of Adam that He needs to repent. He doesn't make mistakes.

And you don't know what repent means. The Hebrew word used when God repented of what He spoke against Nineveh was "nâcham." You should follow the link and see what it means, and look up the verses wherein it is used in reference to God, such as Jonah 3:10 or 1 Samuel 15:11, 29, 35. You appear to have referred to v29, but that is sandwiched between two verses in which God is said to repent, which means there are different meanings to the word and context is the key to what is meant. And remember that in v11 God is speaking of Himself.

He knows the total number of molecules, photons and quarks in the entire universe.

I won't argue that He can't know that; but I would question why He would even care. Why would He need, or even want, to know that?

He knew the path of every single one before they were created.

Can you back that up with Scripture? What verse tell you that God knew things before they were extant to be objects of knowledge?

He knew exactly what I would type this morning before He set the sun in the sky.

Scripture?

I don't buy that. I believe He knows every single thing. He wouldn't be God if He didn't. He'd be powerless and weak. He'd have to watch CNN to find out what happened every day. God doesn't watch TV. He doesn't own a watch. He knows all.

What kind of deity is beholden to knowing all that will ever happen? Can God change any of it? And if not, what kind of supreme being is that? I though you were arguing that He is all powerful? Make up your mind.

God is eternal.

No argument here.

He is not growing or changing. He is the same. The creation has time as one of its attributes. God does not.

Where is your Scripture to back any of this up?

Why does it not concern you that you cannot support your arguments with His word?

What is your definition of time?

 

[godrulz]

I don't mean above as in direction, but as in hierarchy. God is above all. Were He subject to time it would mean that time is above Him and rules over Him. If that were the case, He would always be racing against the clock. He doesn't sweat because He knows everything long before it happens. He planned every second before He started this universe spinning. One day He will put the heavens away in a drawer, neatly folded.

God is intelligent and powerful. He can respond to things in real time just as I do as a paramedic. He is omnicompetent, not omnicausal. He does not need an eternity to plan for every detail. He can deal with any contingency as they actualize. You underestimate God and overestimate exhaustive foreknowledge that would offer no providential advantage because God could not change the future even if He wanted to.

God is sovereign, but that does not mean He lacks duration in His experiences. Time is not a limitation for an omni God like it is for us. He has endless years (not no years Ps. 102:27), no beginning, no end. He can be everywhere, multitask, know everything knowable, do anything doable, etc. Sequence/succession is part of His triune relations from eternity past. He is from everlasting to everlasting with a before/after creation. Timelessness is a wrong philosophical, Platonic view adopted by Augustine and uncritically accepted by too much of the modern church.

You logic is off to think God is subject to time if it is an aspect of His experience. Just because creation is separated by centuries from incarnation and Second Coming in God's experience (and ours) in no way means He races time or limits it. Eternal now simultaneity/timelessness is nonsensical and highly problematic for a personal God.

I really don't think you understand the various views of time/eternity, a complex, technical discussion that you ignore to retain a simplistic view that you have not even thought through.

 

[Letsargue]

Time is not space...above/in is spatial. God is not above time because time is a concept of duration/sequence/succession, not a created thing.

Right!! - That's one way of putting it!!!

Comparison between short and long ( Events ). - There is No continuance, or a continuing Time, ( Just the NUMBER of TIMES ) as in 10,000 ( Years ), or 365 (( Times )) that in the Event of DAYS!!! – There cannot be a ( Thing ) of Time!! – How could such a Thing WORK??? - What would time do to anything to cause anything to happen, or reverse happen?? – There cannot be such as Minus Time, or Positive Time, or of ((( EVENTS )))!!! – Time travel???!!!! - What a foolish thought!! There cannot be an Event Travel!! – There is NO Such thing as a “Time Wave”, or “Shock Wave of Time”, or of an ((( Event )))!!! --- (( Stupid Scientists ))!!! --- ( 1 Timothy 6:20 KJV ) ---//-- ( Even God ) is smart enough to know that!!!

Paul – 070913

 

[Lon]

Time is not space...above/in is spatial. God is not above time because time is a concept of duration/sequence/succession, not a created thing.

Boo. No, Both rather are *(and pay close attention) physical measurements. Time measures physical properties concerning duration.

The line is a very adequate symbol in which to talk about time (as are numbers and a time display with hands). Both are math related ideas.

 

[godrulz]

Boo. No, Both rather are *(and pay close attention) physical measurements. Time measures physical properties concerning duration.

The line is a very adequate symbol in which to talk about time (as are numbers and a time display with hands). Both are math related ideas.

Don't confuse the concept of time (duration, succession, sequence) with the unique measures of time. Even if we do not have clocks (God in eternity past), duration still happens.

A line is an apt analogy since time is unidirectional (so retrocausation is not possible, time travel to future or past is not possible, etc.).

The measures of time are a different matter than time itself. Clocks may be affected by gravity, but time exists even without creation or measures of time. Measures of time had a beginning, but time itself, did not.

Even if we do not measure time, God experiences sequence. The first coming precedes the second coming. His contemplations in the triune being from eternity past had sequence and then creation happened at some point during His divine temporality (vs timelessness).

A theory/presentism makes more sense than B theory/eternalism.

The potential future becomes the fixed past through the actual present. The past is memory and the future is anticipatory. Only the present is actual.

Even if a clock breaks/stops, duration marches on (time). Timelessness/eternal now simultaneity is incoherent.

 

[Lon]

Don't confuse the concept of time (duration, succession, sequence) with the unique measures of time. Even if we do not have clocks (God in eternity past), duration still happens.

Correction: "Is still happening!" Explain God's 'time' in an endless past for me. I'm all ears. You will be the first ever to be able to explain that in terms of duration. I'm silent as the hills waiting for this specific reply!

A line is an apt analogy since time is unidirectional (so retrocausation is not possible, time travel to future or past is not possible, etc.).

"For us." :up: Remember you said this when you attempt to answer the question above.

The measures of time are a different matter than time itself. Clocks may be affected by gravity, but time exists even without creation or measures of time. Measures of time had a beginning, but time itself, did not.

Lord love ya, William. No, my thumb is two inches long. You can always refer to it as a two-inch thumb. It really doesn't matter if the ruler you used is wrong, it does nothing to the length of my thumb at all. It is a two-inch thumb.

Even if we do not measure time, God experiences sequence. The first coming precedes the second coming. His contemplations in the triune being from eternity past had sequence and then creation happened at some point during His divine temporality (vs timelessness).

You just skipped from 'eternal' to 'noneternal' from the 'infinite' to the 'finite' in your proof. Just because a segment has an infinite number of points and smaller segments does not mean it is infinite. It is finite, it's possibilities are infinite. God is infinite, not just potentially or possibly infinite.

A theory/presentism makes more sense than B theory/eternalism.

William, all this is saying is that finite things make the most sense to you, a finite being. And I'd say, "of course." But "When we are thinking of an infinite God, such will not, cannot suffice."

The potential future becomes the fixed past through the actual present. The past is memory and the future is anticipatory. Only the present is actual.

You made the same infinite to finite identity mistake as above.
Make sure you are aware of this when you give me your definition of an eternal past as asked for above.

Even if a clock breaks/stops, duration marches on (time). Timelessness/eternal now simultaneity is incoherent.

Not really. If you cannot measure something, the thing becomes meaningless to we finite beings. You can't, for example, use a board when constructing, without a tape measure or some other measuring device. You cannot make me a cake that is edible without monitoring its progress. We are stuck on this material plane because we are physical manifestations (absolutely measurable) of an incorporeal (absolutely non-measurable) God.

 

[Aimiel]

If we think about it, the only way to go back in time and see God being able to begin creation is if He begins by creating time. If we were to suppose He is wearing an infinite watch, it would never read the hour He was to begin creation, since time goes all the way back infinitely. He HAD to create time, or there could be no starting point. Hence the explanation from Scripture...

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The word, "circle," here refers to time. God made a beginning and ending of time: creation. It is of limited duration. One day He will bring time to an end.

 

[Lighthouse]

If we think about it, the only way to go back in time and see God being able to begin creation is if He begins by creating time. If we were to suppose He is wearing an infinite watch, it would never read the hour He was to begin creation, since time goes all the way back infinitely. He HAD to create time, or there could be no starting point. Hence the explanation from Scripture...

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The word, "circle," here refers to time. God made a beginning and ending of time: creation. It is of limited duration. One day He will bring time to an end.

You can't back any of this up with Scripture. The verse you have posted here gives no indication the "circle" is time; that is pure conjecture.

You have no integrity Ken.

 

[godrulz]

You can't back any of this up with Scripture. The verse you have posted here gives no indication the "circle" is time; that is pure conjecture.

You have no integrity Ken.

The verse is not about his idea at all.

 

[Letsargue]

Correction: "Is still happening!" Explain God's 'time' in an endless past for me. I'm all ears. You will be the first ever to be able to explain that in terms of duration. I'm silent as the hills waiting for this specific reply!


"For us." :up: Remember you said this when you attempt to answer the question above.


Lord love ya, William. No, my thumb is two inches long. You can always refer to it as a two-inch thumb. It really doesn't matter if the ruler you used is wrong, it does nothing to the length of my thumb at all. It is a two-inch thumb.

You just skipped from 'eternal' to 'noneternal' from the 'infinite' to the 'finite' in your proof. Just because a segment has an infinite number of points and smaller segments does not mean it is infinite. It is finite, it's possibilities are infinite. God is infinite, not just potentially or possibly infinite.


William, all this is saying is that finite things make the most sense to you, a finite being. And I'd say, "of course." But "When we are thinking of an infinite God, such will not, cannot suffice."


You made the same infinite to finite identity mistake as above.
Make sure you are aware of this when you give me your definition of an eternal past as asked for above.

Not really. If you cannot measure something, the thing becomes meaningless to we finite beings. You can't, for example, use a board when constructing, without a tape measure or some other measuring device. You cannot make me a cake that is edible without monitoring its progress. We are stuck on this material plane because we are physical manifestations (absolutely measurable) of an incorporeal (absolutely non-measurable) God.

( Eternity ), the Long Constant TIME!!!, not a number of all different Times!!

(( Everything Happens ));- and ( Happenings / Events ) are done in a number of (( TIMES )). - Every ((( Time ))) something (( Happens )) it's another TIME!!!! ----- OK!! -- (( "Time, Times, and Half TIME" )) are (( EVENTS )); Two and Half days / Events!!!! -- Now What???

How do you all do this, just follow some foolish scientist, and not The obvious Truth!!

Paul -- 071013

 

[Lon]

( Eternity ), the Long Constant TIME!!!, not a number of all different Times!!

(( Everything Happens ));- and ( Happenings / Events ) are done in a number of (( TIMES )). - Every ((( Time ))) something (( Happens )) it's another TIME!!!! ----- OK!! -- (( "Time, Times, and Half TIME" )) are (( EVENTS )); Two and Half days / Events!!!! -- Now What???

How do you all do this, just follow some foolish scientist, and not The obvious Truth!!

Paul -- 071013

And, if you don't have a watch or other time device? What time is it then? What about a calendar or other day-month-year keeping device? What day is it then?

The answer is really simple, Paul. God made some of the things we use (sun, moon, stars, seasons).
We made up the rest (calendars, clocks).
Without them, time is meaningless. Time is only a succession for physical finite (timed) beings.

You are a bit dizzy arguing with both sides in this particular debate, Paul.
When you do this, people either think you just like to argue or that you don't have the mind to be here. You know you've been told both of these so it is important that you try a little harder and not get so "Let'sArgue" that you become irrelevant and easily dismissed. I've pos repped you enough for you to know the difference here.

You've been reported enough to know better than to not keep control over yourself.

 

[Aimiel]

You can't back any of this up with Scripture. The verse you have posted here gives no indication the "circle" is time; that is pure conjecture.

It makes perfect sense if you just think about it.

 

[Letsargue]

You are a bit dizzy arguing with both sides in this particular debate, Paul.
When you do this, people either think you just like to argue or that you don't have the mind to be here. You know you've been told both of these so it is important that you try a little harder and not get so "Let'sArgue" that you become irrelevant and easily dismissed. I've pos repped you enough for you to know the difference here.

You've been reported enough to know better than to not keep control over yourself.

You're just talking and condemning!! - That's called ((( "False Judgment" )))!! -- You're not saying anything that shows, -- "That SHOWS" Time as a Thing' - and not an (( "Event Compairson" )). -- Come on show us something instead of Just ( Rejecting ) the (( only visible evidance of either ))!!!

Paul -- 071113

 

[Lon]

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with Einstein, but I fail to see how this statement is logical.

Okay, a line is infinite. As soon as you put a point on it, it is no longer a line but two rays and has properties of both finite point of origin and infinite properties. In other words, it stops being infinite because you are constraining it with the finite, in this case two rays extending from the 'finite' point.

Just because we may not understand it doesn't mean it is outside of possibility.

The problem is trying to put an arbitrary point of consideration on His infinite existence. It is trying to force God to be 'finite.' The point automatically redacts Him being infinite. God does this entering and interacting with us in our perceptions thus time, but those are 'His' meaningful and eternal points, because He is eternal.
In other words, He qualifies/quantifies us, we do not quantify or qualify Him. The infinite can measure what is finite (measurable) but the finite cannot measure what by definition has no measure.

Prove it.

Okay, first of all, time is only conceived because of physical properties. Without it, there is no way to measure duration. The have done experiments with people, even on a recent episode of BrainGames, where people were deprived of some senses and lost capability of gauging duration. Because God does not change, even if only for an Open Theist's understanding of immutability, that aspect is beyond space, time, and any other measurement. Why? Because to what every even the OV allows immutability, there is no change. No change = no duration.
Example <--------------------> This line will never change. It goes both ways to infinity and cannot be measured. You can't measure an infinite line and you can only observe the segment of it that is within our physical area of ability.

Prove it.

Because God is 'infinite' and measure is 'finite' you cannot measure Him with anything. Like the segment in the line above, you can only do so with what every portion of Him interacts with us. We do not know all of God.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

True, but these are important principles that are true nontheless.

Can you actually make this argument or are you only able to spout your position without supporting it?

Time is a concept, but its impetus is observation. In other words, without our 5 senses, there is no sense of duration. I can but point to tests done to show this, but remembering God has an infinite past (that in our language is 'still going' by conception, already means God escapes what we know of time. We never do nothing, so are always sensing duration (doing something). When we sleep, there is no time. You do not lie there for 8 hours knowing you are lying there for eight hours (sans insomnia). You lie down, close your eyes, and instantly are awake, yet 8 hours (or so) has past. Also, we do travel to the past and see the past, believe it or not. For instance, we know that we see stars that exploded well before we were born, yet we can watch it 'as it happened' when Moses was a live because it is still happening when we see it. That is, the manifestation is now with us of something that happened hundreds of years ago. We literally watch it explode 'now.' And here is the mind boggler: It no longer exists! At the moment we are watching the explosion on a telescope, the even is happening before our eyes, yet the star hasn't existed for hundreds of years.

The point, if we can already travel in a limited manner backwards in time, then God, who is infinite and all powerful, is infinitely more able than we. On top of that, we are talking about a 'physical' thing. God is Spirit.

Forget a foundation of sand, you have no foundation at all displayed here.

I missed this as you pushed your response altogether, but no, it is no house of sand. Mathematics and science help us at least partially understand and establish what is infinite. It is in comparing the two that we get small glimpses and here are several given.

 

[Letsargue]

Okay, a line is infinite. As soon as you put a point on it, it is no longer a line but two rays and has properties of both finite point of origin and infinite properties. In other words, it stops being infinite because you are constraining it with the finite, in this case two rays extending from the 'finite' point.


The problem is trying to put an arbitrary point of consideration on His infinite existence. It is trying to force God to be 'finite.' The point automatically redacts Him being infinite. God does this entering and interacting with us in our perceptions thus time, but those are 'His' meaningful and eternal points, because He is eternal.
In other words, He qualifies/quantifies us, we do not quantify or qualify Him. The infinite can measure what is finite (measurable) but the finite cannot measure what by definition has no measure.

Okay, first of all, time is only conceived because of physical properties. Without it, there is no way to measure duration. The have done experiments with people, even on a recent episode of BrainGames, where people were deprived of some senses and lost capability of gauging duration. Because God does not change, even if only for an Open Theist's understanding of immutability, that aspect is beyond space, time, and any other measurement. Why? Because to what every even the OV allows immutability, there is no change. No change = no duration.
Example <--------------------> This line will never change. It goes both ways to infinity and cannot be measured. You can't measure an infinite line and you can only observe the segment of it that is within our physical area of ability.



Because God is 'infinite' and measure is 'finite' you cannot measure Him with anything. Like the segment in the line above, you can only do so with what every portion of Him interacts with us. We do not know all of God.


True, but these are important principles that are true nontheless.


Time is a concept, but its impetus is observation. In other words, without our 5 senses, there is no sense of duration. I can but point to tests done to show this, but remembering God has an infinite past (that in our language is 'still going' by conception, already means God escapes what we know of time. We never do nothing, so are always sensing duration (doing something). When we sleep, there is no time. You do not lie there for 8 hours knowing you are lying there for eight hours (sans insomnia). You lie down, close your eyes, and instantly are awake, yet 8 hours (or so) has past. Also, we do travel to the past and see the past, believe it or not. For instance, we know that we see stars that exploded well before we were born, yet we can watch it 'as it happened' when Moses was a live because it is still happening when we see it. That is, the manifestation is now with us of something that happened hundreds of years ago. We literally watch it explode 'now.' And here is the mind boggler: It no longer exists! At the moment we are watching the explosion on a telescope, the even is happening before our eyes, yet the star hasn't existed for hundreds of years.

The point, if we can already travel in a limited manner backwards in time, then God, who is infinite and all powerful, is infinitely more able than we. On top of that, we are talking about a 'physical' thing. God is Spirit.


I missed this as you pushed your response altogether, but no, it is no house of sand. Mathematics and science help us at least partially understand and establish what is infinite. It is in comparing the two that we get small glimpses and here are several given.

Just look at this!!

Nothing of God!! – Just Philosophy of Nothing!! – Time?? – Let’s see it if it is something!! - Describe the substance of IT; - describe the Action of it; - describe the beginning and ending of it; describe how it works, and does anything AT ALL!!! – Come on; -- if Time exists of itself, - It has a Definition of itself; - what is the Definition of Time that is not the Philosophical it????

Most of you, if you do have something - truly, you give Truth / or Schritpure for it, for as long as it takes!! - But if you don't have Anything to stand on, you just spit and condemn and call names, Because that's All You Have to support your false doctrines!!!

Paul – 071113