Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

Status
Not open for further replies.

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
The beginning is obviously time. What else could beginning mean? God did not begin. Jesus is eternal. Time began then creation. How else could it be that there will be an end? Time began when God created it, else He would be slave to it.

Posted from the TOL App!

Does not compute. Unique measures of time had a beginning, not time itself. Everlasting duration/sequence/succession is as eternal, everlasting, endless as specious timelessness. Love is eternal with God as a concept. This does not make God a slave to it. Time is an aspect of His personal experience. This makes Him personal, dynamic, not static rock. He is not a slave to duration, but freed by it. It is not a limitation for God like it is for us. His years are without end (Ps.). Our years on earth end. He is omnipotent and omniscient, unlike us. The issue is that only the present is actual for God and His creation. The past is memory and the future is not yet/anticipatory. This is the plain revelation on every page of Scripture free from philosophical, Platonic, Augustinian reasoning.
 

Aimiel

New member
Were God a slave to time as you presume: He'd not be able to foresee anything... He'd only be guessing. He foretells in His Word perfect Prophecy due to time being His creation. He sees the end before He begins creation. He knows everything, whether you suppose that is possible or not. He knows what time He will end this creation and begin the new Heaven and new earth. He knows when that one will end, as well.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
Were God a slave to time as you presume: He'd not be able to foresee anything... He'd only be guessing. He foretells in His Word perfect Prophecy due to time being His creation. He sees the end before He begins creation. He knows everything, whether you suppose that is possible or not. He knows what time He will end this creation and begin the new Heaven and new earth. He knows when that one will end, as well.

Slave to time is a straw man caricature reflecting your lack of understanding of views you reject. The future is not there yet to see. Is. 46; 48 does say God can declare some vs all things about the future because of His ABILITY to bring it to pass, not because of prescience, simple foreknowledge, middle knowledge, etc. An omniscient God who knows the past and present exhaustively, controls some vs all of the future, has infinite intelligence, etc. does more than guess like a human weatherman.

God knows everything knowable. Some things are inherently unknowable due to the nature of non-deterministic, indeterminate creation (free will allows love, relationship, responsibility, etc. to be possible; determinism makes foreknowledge possible, but also impugns God's character with heinous evil).

God can know the end of time because He will bring it about by His power in His timing and way. This cannot be extrapolated to mean He has exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies from eternity past as to all the details of every chess game, sporting match, etc. before the possible becomes actual (when it does, He knows reality as it is).

The issue is not omniscience (we agree he knows all that is knowable), but the nature of reality that He knows (fixed, actual or potential, possible, probable, certain=modal logic).
 

Aimiel

New member
Slave to time is a straw man caricature reflecting your lack of understanding of views you reject.
Logic is inescapable.
The future is not there yet to see.
Because you say so?
Is. 46; 48 does say God can declare some vs all things about the future because of His ABILITY to bring it to pass, not because of prescience, simple foreknowledge, middle knowledge, etc.
Again: because you say so?
An omniscient God who knows the past and present exhaustively, controls some vs all of the future, has infinite intelligence, etc. does more than guess like a human weatherman.
Yes, far more. He knows everything that will ever happen. Likening Him to man is the habit of temporal beings.
God knows everything knowable.
Who defines what is 'knowable'? Father Time?
Some things are inherently unknowable due to the nature of non-deterministic, indeterminate creation (free will allows love, relationship, responsibility, etc. to be possible; determinism makes foreknowledge possible, but also impugns God's character with heinous evil).
Sorry, but The God I believe in could see me (and all my progeny) long before He made Adam out of dust.
God can know the end of time because He will bring it about by His power in His timing and way.
Yes, just like everything else that exists, He brought it about, so He knows what will happen to it. Every single minute detail.
This cannot be extrapolated to mean He has exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies from eternity past as to all the details of every chess game, sporting match, etc. before the possible becomes actual (when it does, He knows reality as it is).
Because you say so?
The issue is not omniscience (we agree he knows all that is knowable), but the nature of reality that He knows (fixed, actual or potential, possible, probable, certain=modal logic).
It would be omniscience, if He knew everything. Your imagined god knows very little, if anything. God knows everything. Past, present, future and even the beginning and end of time.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
God exists....not because I say so, but because the Bible says so, it is true, etc.

You cannot dismiss a valid argument as a subjective error if it is true.
 

JosephR

New member
God-in-time.jpg

Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:

In the "eternal state" before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the SON OF MAN; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).
Many theologians reject this proof that God is in time. Why? They claim that their historical-grammatical hermeneutic, that is, their primary method of interpretation, proves that God is not in time. So let's look at the relationship of God and time.

When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks.

By "the Greek" there, I meant pagan Greek philosophy (and pagan Hinduism, etc.). In contrast, the Bible's Hebrew and Greek terms are TOTALLY different. They all speak of God existing through unending duration and everlasting amounts of time. The above terms are foreign to the student of God's Word, whereas the Bible's terms are all so very familiar from our Scripture reading. Even though typically translated by those who claim that God is outside of time, yet still, the Bible's many descriptions present God as existing in a never-ending sequence of time.

When Reading Your Bible about God and Time, We See that God is:

Everlasting - From of old - Before ever He had formed the earth - The Ancient of Days - Before the world was - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - He continues forever - Immortal - Remains forever - Forever and ever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - God who is - Alive forevermore - Who was - Who is to come - Always lives - Forever - In the age to come - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.

Of course ALL THESE are verbatim quotes from Scripture and NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS. The scores of passages represented from these phrases teach the opposite of pagan Plato's claim that God has "no past" and "no future." Open Theism claims that the future is open (and not settled) because God is free and eternally creative and will always have new thoughts. The Settled View claims that the future is utterly and exhaustively settled and its advocates includes all Calvinist and Arminian theologians. These Settled View adherents interpret ALL scripture about God and time as a FIGURE OF SPEECH. But they take Plato literally. Why?
The human philosophy of the pagan Greeks (which Augustine admited that he adapted to Christian theology), assumes that God exists outside of time, something the language of Scripture could easily present if that were God's intention.

The Above Proof By Proof Texts: Let's demonstrate the above proof again this time using only Bible excerpts. Those who claim that God is outside of time also frequently use the unbiblical phrase, "the eternal state." Actually, every moment is in the eternal state, including those moments before creation, all those since, and including those that will follow the New Creation. The following purely scriptural phrases show that in the "eternal state," WHO GOD WAS in eternity past differs from WHO GOD IS now and in eternity future. The differences do not include anythink like an abandonment of His fundamental attributes (which are that He is Living, Personal, Relational, Good, and Loving), but rather, they are divine expressions of these attributes. For:

"The Father… is Spirit" and "invisible," "from of old… from everlasting," just "like the Son of God," who "loved [the Son] before the foundation of the world." Yet "God was manifested in the flesh" for "the Word BECAME flesh," having "partaken of flesh and blood," and "coming in the likeness of men" "to be made like His brethren." So "He is the SON OF MAN," "from the seed of David," "Jesus Christ… the Son of Abraham." And "this MAN, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." And "He ever lives to make intercession," for "the Mediator between God and men" is "the MAN Christ Jesus." So "God… will judge the world… by the MAN whom He has ordained," and "in the regeneration… the SON OF MAN sits on the throne of His glory."

The second person of the Trinity, God the Son, was not OF MAN through eternity past. Neither David, nor Adam, nor any of us, were necessary for God to be God. But the second person of the Trinity is now Jesus, the SON OF MAN. But willing to trade away God's freedom, holiness, and a thousand literal Bible verses, many theologians will sacrifice the greatest truths of Scripture for Platonic immutability. (Some Christians even say that they would reject Christ if God had actual freedom.) As we've seen in the "comment thread" to Bob Enyart's Open Theism Debate with the president of The North American Reformed Seminary, a reader responding to our own BEL producer Will Duffy, wrote:

"Jesus Christ is God and man, he is both, he has eternally existed as both."
Christians desperate to win an argument that God is outside of time will even flirt with the unbiblical claim that God the Son was always a man, from eternity past. However, regarding the extension of humanity onto God the Son Himself through the incarnation, there is a divine chronological order. For:

"...the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth… the second Man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Cor. 15:46

But theologians committed to the Settled View handle this verse like they do a thousand others. They turn it into a figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the passage naturally states. If they were correct in this, then of course Christians could we can safely ignore the evident teaching of this and many other such passages. But in truth, Jesus was the Son of God from eternity past, and He became forever the Son of Man only at the Incarnation. For remember that writing in Genesis Moses introduced Melchizedek without parents making it appear that He had no beginning, "like the Son of God" (Heb. 7:3).

The Son of Man: As men, we probably would never pick the same title for Jesus as is His favorite title for Himself, "the Son of Man." That title seems almost common to us, because we are all sons of man. But He took that title for Himself after much humbling and lowering and emptying of Himself. That title, the Son of Man, is precious to Him because it cost Him so much. But many theologians reject that the Incarnation shows change in God, as demonstrated in the TNARS Open Theism debate (mentioned above). In defending their position, such theologians claim that Open Theists confuse Christ's humanity with His divinity. However, there are not four persons of the trinity, as is implied by such objections. His humanity did not become human. It is the eternal God the Son who became flesh.

To defend Platonic utter immutability those who hold the Settled View will deny that God has the freedom even to think new thoughts. So what do they get in trade for God's freedom? They can claim that before the criminal was ever born, God decided how often to rape that child and how filthy each time would be, "all for His glory and pleasure" including the rapist being beat to death in prison. The fact that God says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezek. 33:11) is irrelevant because it's all a double figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the text says, as we can see from the sad reality that many theologians believe that God did ordain the rape, and the beating death, "for His pleasure." And they even claim that God is impassible, that is, that He can have no emotion or passion, for in contrast to a hundred verses in Scripture, John Calvin wrote that God is, "incapable of every feeling." So when God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, they claim really that He can have NO pleasure whatsoever. Yes, God's ways are higher than our ways. But they're not lower. He doesn't take pleasure from adultery.

When pressed, as in the above debate, many theologians will admit that Sovereignty is NOT an eternal attribute of God. That is a valid position, for otherwise, God's very existence would be dependent upon the creation. Just as Adam is not necessary for God to be God (as he would have been if the Son of God were also the Son of Man, eternally) so too if the quantitative attribute of exhaustive foreknowledge is required for God to be God, then the one reading this sentence at this very moment would also be a necessary prerequisite for God to be God, for God could not then exist apart from each and every one of us being and doing and thinking everything in fact that we've been and done and thought. For if our existence is necessary in His mind eternally for Him to be God, then in a fundamental way we are also eternally necessary for God's very existence, and He then could not be God without me. This is a twisted theological perversion. Such notions diminish God. And they bring the Christian into absurdities like praying to change the past. After all, if God is outside of time, then there is no difference to God in prayers for the future and those for the past, in praying for those living today and for those who died yesterday. Christians find themselves battling the same absurdities as time traveling science fiction characters. Coming back to reality though, even in sovereignty we see God changing. For in eternity past He was not sovereign. Yet after He returns "in His own time" as "the King of kings" (1 Tim. 6:15) He will reign Sovereign in His kingdom that will never end (Isaiah 9:7).

Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the orginal language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

- "Time shall be no more" (Rev. 10:6; hymns) is corrected even by Calvinist translators in virtually all modern versions as is also made overtly clear from the text and the context, "There will be no more delay!"
- "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall have be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millenia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (See a similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32.) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and sub-title of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain.

There is Time in Heaven: When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).

- When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18).
- …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2).

- But this Man, AFTER He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… FROM THAT TIME WAITING TILL His enemies are [defeated] (Heb. 10:12-13).

- [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).
If the TRUE perspective is God's ETERNAL NOW, then David is now killing Bathsheba’s husband, each believer is still in his sin, and the Father is right now pouring out wrath on His Son, right now. But this is false for Hebrews says that Jesus suffered "once for all."

Neither men nor angles can be omnipresent, even in heaven, for they would thereby have to be divine. The same limitation would apply with timelessness. If God existed outside of time the angels before His throne ("who do not rest… saying, 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come'") and the men ministering to Him forever would also have to be timeless, which would mean that they were divine also. And Jesus said we shall receive much "in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life" (Luke 18:30), and as for things that can happen, as He said in a parable, some things happen "by chance" (Luke 10:31). And "In the beginning" does not mean in the beginning of time, for that's Augustine's interpretation based on Plato, but we have the Lord's interpretation based on Mark, for as Jesus said, the phrase means in "the beginning OF CREATION" (Mk. 10:6; Mat. 19:4).

God did many things before creation (John 17:24, 5; Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:20; Eph. 1:4) and His children shall "endure forever" (Ps. 39:36) enjoying God eternally through an "everlasting covenant" (Gen. 17:7), "established forever." So the Bible teaches that God is in time. And a foundation of the Settled View is seen to be heavily based on human philosophy and contradicted by the entirety of the relevant biblical material.

By Bob Enyart, KGOV.com &
Pastor, Denver Bible Church


For your convenience we have created a short link for this article at http://bit.ly/godandtime


Of coarse God can BE in time,, when He walked in the Garden.. the point is God is not constrained by time..and does not obey its rules we must. All bows before God.. Even father time.
 

Lighthouse

Star-Spangled Kid
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The beginning is obviously time. What else could beginning mean? God did not begin. Jesus is eternal. Time began then creation. How else could it be that there will be an end? Time began when God created it, else He would be slave to it.
Do you ever listen to yourself?

Time did not need to be created in order for things to begin and/or end. There is no statement within the Bible that time will end.

And your ignorance is on full display in your clear lack of comprehension of the possibility that time is a slave to God.

Were God a slave to time as you presume: He'd not be able to foresee anything... He'd only be guessing. He foretells in His Word perfect Prophecy due to time being His creation. He sees the end before He begins creation. He knows everything, whether you suppose that is possible or not. He knows what time He will end this creation and begin the new Heaven and new earth. He knows when that one will end, as well.
What kind of God do you believe in that He would be unable to perform His will in spite of all else without being able to see and know the future throughout every single detail and moment?
 

Aimiel

New member
Do you ever listen to yourself?
Actually, I hear myself typing even right now!!!
Time did not need to be created in order for things to begin and/or end.
I can understand why you presume that to be true.
There is no statement within the Bible that time will end.
There's no statement in The Bible which proves it to be false.
And your ignorance is on full display in your clear lack of comprehension of the possibility that time is a slave to God.
As is yours in your succinct lack of understanding of the fact that God would be a slave to time if time were indeed: eternal, from before creation. God would never reach a point to being able to even begin creation, since time would stretch back to (where, exactly, if it has always existed?) eternity, because there would be an infinite amount of time BEFORE creation began. Did you ever really stop and realize what that means? NO!!!
What kind of God do you believe in that He would be unable to perform His will in spite of all else without being able to see and know the future throughout every single detail and moment?
He could perform His Will in complete darkness (oops, He already did that) or without an instruction manual (did that too) and of course He could do so without anything that we might imagine... but, He knows everything, since He is, actually: God. :duh:

Time cannot restrain Him. Time does not hold Him back. He doesn't have to wait for the news to come on in Heaven to know what will happen 500 or 10,000 years from now. He already knows the end from the beginning. He saw the end of time before He said, "Let there be light." It didn't take Him any time to think about it or draw blueprints up. He knew everything before He made anything. He still knows everything. He always will. He's God. You're not. Quit trying to fit the Eternal God into your tiny little brain which has a finite number of brain cells. He's infinite. No, He's bigger than that: He's everywhere and everywhen. He is. He is that He is. He isn't 'might be' or 'maybe' or 'we'll just wait and see' He is God and our estimation of Him doesn't even scratch the surface of Who He is. Not one single tiny little facet of Him can be seen clearly from the perspective of a temporal (time-limited) plane of existence. He is Eternal. He is Infinite. He is so far above time that we cannot even imagine what that means.
 

Lighthouse

Star-Spangled Kid
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Actually, I hear myself typing even right now!!!I can understand why you presume that to be true.There's no statement in The Bible which proves it to be false.As is yours in your succinct lack of understanding of the fact that God would be a slave to time if time were indeed: eternal, from before creation. God would never reach a point to being able to even begin creation, since time would stretch back to (where, exactly, if it has always existed?) eternity, because there would be an infinite amount of time BEFORE creation began. Did you ever really stop and realize what that means? NO!!!He could perform His Will in complete darkness (oops, He already did that) or without an instruction manual (did that too) and of course He could do so without anything that we might imagine... but, He knows everything, since He is, actually: God. :duh:

Time cannot restrain Him. Time does not hold Him back. He doesn't have to wait for the news to come on in Heaven to know what will happen 500 or 10,000 years from now. He already knows the end from the beginning. He saw the end of time before He said, "Let there be light." It didn't take Him any time to think about it or draw blueprints up. He knew everything before He made anything. He still knows everything. He always will. He's God. You're not. Quit trying to fit the Eternal God into your tiny little brain which has a finite number of brain cells. He's infinite. No, He's bigger than that: He's everywhere and everywhen. He is. He is that He is. He isn't 'might be' or 'maybe' or 'we'll just wait and see' He is God and our estimation of Him doesn't even scratch the surface of Who He is. Not one single tiny little facet of Him can be seen clearly from the perspective of a temporal (time-limited) plane of existence. He is Eternal. He is Infinite. He is so far above time that we cannot even imagine what that means.
You are a pompous blowhard who spouts nothing but hot air. If you're currently married I have no idea how, or why, your wife puts up with you.
 

Aimiel

New member
You are a pompous blowhard who spouts nothing but hot air. If you're currently married I have no idea how, or why, your wife puts up with you.

Thank you... coming from you I take the names as a compliment. I'd hate to be in agreement with a pompous blow hard who lives in his mommy's basement reading comic books.

Posted from the TOL App!
 

musterion

Well-known member
A question about the Open view.

Is one of the main ideas that God does not know the future but doesn't need to know it? That is...He may not know what men may or may not choose to do, yet He is still omnipotent and sovereign, thus His will and plans prevail no matter what?

I was looking into the Open view some years ago at Bob Hill's old site (which I think is now gone) but have forgotten most of what I read. So I ask in order to not misunderstand anyone.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
A question about the Open view.

Is one of the main ideas that God does not know the future, but He doesn't need to know it? That is...He does not know what men may or may not do, yet He is still omnipotent and sovereign, thus His will and plans prevail no matter what?

I was looking into the Open view some years ago at Bob Hill's old site (which I think is now gone) but have forgotten most of what I read. So I ask in order to not misunderstand anyone.

There is no providential advantage to knowing the fixed future that God could not even change if He wanted to. e.g. If He foreknows exhaustively that you will die in a car accident tomorrow, He could not change this event in response to prayer because it would make His false.

Instead, God is intelligent, powerful, responsive, etc. He knows of the possibility of the accident, sees it unfolding, and can choose to intervene or not in real space-time. He can know contingencies proximal to the event, but that does not mean He knows the scenario in eternity past before they or the agents exist.

The reason that God does not know the future exhaustively is because He did not create a deterministic universe. If He was omnicausal, He would know it. Since He is omnicompetent, there is no disadvantage to not knowing it. He also knows the past/present exhaustively, aspects of the future that He unilaterally brings to pass, and many things as possible or plausible based on His intelligence and knowing all that is knowable (unlike finite creatures).

He is sovereign providentially, not meticulously. If He micro vs micromanaged, He would be responsible for evil, contrary to His character.

Omniscience is knowing the knowable. Omnipotence is doing the doable. There are some things that are inherently, logically unknowable/undoable (e.g. future free will contingencies that may or may not happen/obtain and creating square circles or married bachelors).

God's will is not always done and can be resisted. However, in the end, justice will prevail, but He will triumph over evil in the end. Now, we have a warfare model, not a blueprint model (problem of evil, suffering, etc.).

Some on TOL (Enyart, Lighthouse, Hill, Knight, Clete, etc.) do say that God can choose to not know things that are knowable (e.g. does not have to know or see gay sex if He does not want to). I do not think this is defensible, even by Open Theist standards. God cannot be Judge and ignorant of things men, devil, video recorders, etc. know!?
 

Shasta

New member
Do you ever listen to yourself?

Time did not need to be created in order for things to begin and/or end. There is no statement within the Bible that time will end.

And your ignorance is on full display in your clear lack of comprehension of the possibility that time is a slave to God.


What kind of God do you believe in that He would be unable to perform His will in spite of all else without being able to see and know the future throughout every single detail and moment?

You speak as though the substantival view of time (that is, that time must exist prior to the creation of the universe) has been proven beyond doubt a shadow of a doubt while it has not by any means. Whether time is substantival or relational is still being debated point among Christian philosophers and theologians.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
These issues are debatable, but that does not mean one cannot have an informed opinion/conviction based on evidence/thinking.
 

Aimiel

New member
Knowing every decision every soul will ever make doesn't make Him deterministic... merely Omniscient. He knows everything... including who will or won't pray.

Posted from the TOL App!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top