Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

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godrulz

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Knowing every decision every soul will ever make doesn't make Him deterministic... merely Omniscient. He knows everything... including who will or won't pray.

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God knows everything knowable=omniscient. He is not less omniscient because He does not know where Yoda is.

You are assuming eternal now and simple foreknowledge without proof (beg the question). You fail to see that it is problematic to affirm exhaustive definite foreknowledge and libertarian free will (logical contradiction).
 

Nick M

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You are assuming eternal now and simple foreknowledge without proof (beg the question). You fail to see that it is problematic to affirm exhaustive definite foreknowledge and libertarian free will (logical contradiction).

I hope you never change. It is quite entertaining. Aside from being crucified and raised up.
 

Aimiel

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God knows everything knowable=omniscient. He is not less omniscient because He does not know where Yoda is.
He knows why He inspired the Yoda character to be imagined and whom shall become saved because the goodness of God was portrayed by that character. [GUOTE]You are assuming eternal now and simple foreknowledge without proof (beg the question). You fail to see that it is problematic to affirm exhaustive definite foreknowledge and libertarian free will (logical contradiction).[/QUOTE]your attempt to define The Infinite God with finite terms. In Heaven we will sped an eternity studying Him and still never reach an understanding of half of His Majesty. Why should He have limits such as you imagine? Where do you get off applying your thoughts or images to The Lord of a million hosts? Should He bow to the idol in your tiny mind because you 'think' He must have your constraints to be such-and-such? He has no such limits even though you believe your logic is better than Spock's. He is beyond what you expect or demand.

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Lighthouse

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Thank you... coming from you I take the names as a compliment. I'd hate to be in agreement with a pompous blow hard who lives in his mommy's basement reading comic books.
Trying to insult me with things that aren't in the least bit true coupled with assumptions on the nature of certain types of literature just weakens your standing.

I currently live with neither of my parents, nor are comic books by definition low forms of literature simply because some of them happen to be aimed at children. And they aren't the only thing I read, either. But we all know that you come at me from a place of weakness and you only serve to make yourself more pathetic by flinging baseless insults.

A question about the Open view.

Is one of the main ideas that God does not know the future but doesn't need to know it? That is...He may not know what men may or may not choose to do, yet He is still omnipotent and sovereign, thus His will and plans prevail no matter what?

I was looking into the Open view some years ago at Bob Hill's old site (which I think is now gone) but have forgotten most of what I read. So I ask in order to not misunderstand anyone.
Yes. But it is predicated on the idea that the future does not exist and thus cannot be known.

You speak as though the substantival view of time (that is, that time must exist prior to the creation of the universe) has been proven beyond doubt a shadow of a doubt while it has not by any means. Whether time is substantival or relational is still being debated point among Christian philosophers and theologians.
Logic dictates that God moved before creation and thus time must have existed by default, as a result of God's being.
 

Aimiel

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Trying to insult me...
I wasn't trying to insult you, but if you took it as if it were directed at you, then you must feel some guilt which placed the comments against your character.
Yes. But it is predicated on the idea that the future does not exist and thus cannot be known.
Because an event has not yet come to pass, for those subject to time doesn't prevent The Inventor of Time from knowing their outcome.
Logic dictates that God moved before creation and thus time must have existed by default, as a result of God's being.
Yes, but our 'logic' doesn't apply to God or restrict Him to our reasoning abilities.
 

Aimiel

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By meditation, many Scriptures explain the Truth more deeply than years of study and memorization. Mull it over in your mind, read it slowly, think about it, picture it and ask God to reveal all of what He's trying to get across to you with the Word.
 

Lighthouse

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I wasn't trying to insult you, but if you took it as if it were directed at you, then you must feel some guilt which placed the comments against your character.
Why wouldn't I take a response to my comment as though it were not directed at me?

Are you seriously such an idiot that you think I would fall for that? No wonder you're divorced.

Because an event has not yet come to pass, for those subject to time doesn't prevent The Inventor of Time from knowing their outcome.
Show that God invented time. Show that it is not a byproduct of His being. Go ahead.

Yes, but our 'logic' doesn't apply to God or restrict Him to our reasoning abilities.
His applies to us; we are restricted to reason, which exists through Him.

You need to stop with the backwards thinking regarding limitations. Just because His ways and thoughts are higher than ours does not mean they are completely different monsters that have absolutely nothing in common.

Good point, had not seen it in that light before.
Maybe because that "light" doesn't mean squat. Just because that was the first time that time was measured by means of a day does not logically lead to that being the first time there was time.
 

Lon

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Maybe because that "light" doesn't mean squat. Just because that was the first time that time was measured by means of a day does not logically lead to that being the first time there was time.
:think: Seems a bit reaching to me: "...the first day..."
 

Lighthouse

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The concept of time has a 'beginning' corresponding to creation of things.
Just because Earth had a beginning does not logically dictate that time [a separate thing altogether] had a beginning.

Your [settled theists] entire argument is a non sequitur.
 

Aimiel

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Why wouldn't I take a response to my comment as though it were not directed at me? Are you seriously such an idiot that you think I would fall for that?
Thank you. Coming from you I consider that high praise.
Show that God invented time.
I already did:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

What more is needed? In the beginning He created. There had to be no time before there was a 'beginning' otherwise, it would be: "On stardate 875,503,595,289.1, God created the heaven and the earth.
You need to stop with the backwards thinking regarding limitations. Just because His ways and thoughts are higher than ours does not mean they are completely different monsters that have absolutely nothing in common.
I don't believe that is anything near what He meant by saying that His Ways are higher than ours. He said what He meant. Higher means beyond our understanding. We cannot even see Him. We cannot even fathom eternity. We have a finite number of brain cells to work with. His Knowledge and His Power are unlimited. Not like one of your favorite monsters from your science fiction movies, but actually unlimited in scope and depth. His knowledge cannot be measured or understood by us. Even the wisest of men is a fool when compared to Him. All the wisdom of men is foolishness compared to Him. That doesn't even scratch the surface of how great He is.
 

Lon

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Just because Earth had a beginning does not logically dictate that time [a separate thing altogether] had a beginning.

Your [settled theists] entire argument is a non sequitur.
It isn't. The point of this is that it was the 'first.' If time is something that binds God, as it does you and I, then this wouldn't have been the first day. There would have been a gazillion others times a gazillion others. I do understand what you are saying but to say that this was the first day means that time as we know it began for us on this first day. It must necessarily, have been different for God until then.
 

Lighthouse

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It isn't. The point of this is that it was the 'first.' If time is something that binds God, as it does you and I, then this wouldn't have been the first day. There would have been a gazillion others times a gazillion others. I do understand what you are saying but to say that this was the first day means that time as we know it began for us on this first day. It must necessarily, have been different for God until then.
Time doesn't bind anyone, or anything. And the fact that it was the first day doesn't mean squat in relation to the existence of time.

When God moved time passed. Simple as that. God always was, and therefore time was as a result. The existence of time has always been subject to God's existence. Time was, and is, because God was and is.

It was eternity, as it will be at the end. Time is limited. God isn't.
Prove that time is limited.
 

Aimiel

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Time doesn't bind anyone, or anything.
It does. If God existed subject to time, as we are, then (being infinite) He would still be waiting an infinite amount of time (past) for there to be the right time (present) to begin creation. If He were to create time, then He could do so at will.
And the fact that it was the first day doesn't mean squat in relation to the existence of time.
Actually it does. If there were no first day, then time would never have been in existence.
 

Lighthouse

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It does. If God existed subject to time, as we are, then (being infinite) He would still be waiting an infinite amount of time (past) for there to be the right time (present) to begin creation. If He were to create time, then He could do so at will.
:doh:

What part of "time is subject to God" do you not understand? He binds it, purely by existing.

And God existed in the infinite regardless of whether or not time was created. Eternity past remains reality for God whether or not He created time. So He waited an eternity before beginning creation, either way. And thus your argument fails.

Actually it does. If there were no first day, then time would never have been in existence.
This has got to be the dumbest argument to fall from your stupid mouth. It is pure circular reasoning, with no logical basis.

A day is a measurement of time. It is not time itself. Time is its own entity apart from any such measurement of it.
 

Lon

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:doh:

What part of "time is subject to God" do you not understand? He binds it, purely by existing.

And God existed in the infinite regardless of whether or not time was created. Eternity past remains reality for God whether or not He created time. So He waited an eternity before beginning creation, either way. And thus your argument fails.
This is still an open view paradigm that places constraints on God that cannot be there. A few for instances:
1) that God's 'now' is everywhere (omnipresent). Your and my 'now' is a culmination of past and present and future events that collide. Because we are not omnipresent but finite to a spot with only a singular perception. The sunlight, by which you are able to see during the day took 8 minutes to reach you. That light given off happened 8 minutes ago. If the sun were turned off, you'd not know it for 8 minutes. God would have already know it because He is not bound to any physical part of the universe. His "now" and our "now" are two separate things. He is both light years away now, and here now.
Example: We will not see a star that explodes off in the distance happening now, in our lifetime or even our great great granchild's lifetime. God sees it 'now.' We see some stars exploding on our telescopes just 'now' but it happened a very long time ago to God's now and we are only just seeing it. Our 'now' is a collision of past and future at a particular instance of inspection.

2) Because God is eternal, there is never a moment where any one thing collides forcing Him into that moment. Again, think of a star exploding across the galaxies. Again, realize we will never see it happen and it will take many many generations before our children's children see the event. You and I will be dead by then and never see it, yet it happened and God has already seen it. Yet, even as such is so many years away, here so many light years away from that explosion, God is seeing you reading this text just now. They happen simultaneously but everything in the universe happens simultaneously with God. If it is dark where you are, it is light on the other side of the world and so this so called 'day' is neither for God. It is a collision of events that we 'finite beings' happen to observe at one point, place and call it a 'moment.' That definiting 'moment' alone, cannot exist for God. He is beyond it.

This has got to be the dumbest argument to fall from your stupid mouth. It is pure circular reasoning, with no logical basis.

A day is a measurement of time. It is not time itself. Time is its own entity apart from any such measurement of it.
Yes, I understand it appearing dumb. I think it is rather that he didn't explain this in a way that makes sense. It is beyond our 5 senses and so requires that it be explained at least beyond our 5 senses with a bit of logic or it cannot be grasped as true. God's day is completely different than your and my 24 hour period. God doesn't experience periods as you and I but many infinite periods beyond our comprehension in the moment it takes for us to experience what we think of as a 'moment.'

-Lon
 

Aimiel

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What part of "time is subject to God" do you not understand?
None... just the part where you think it is subject to Him but He is actually subject to it were it not created.
He binds it, purely by existing.
That is meaningless.
And God existed in the infinite regardless of whether or not time was created. Eternity past remains reality for God whether or not He created time. So He waited an eternity before beginning creation, either way.
He couldn't have, since He would still be waiting, were that true.
This has got to be the dumbest argument to fall from your stupid mouth.
Again: that's high praise, coming from you.
A day is a measurement of time.
B'zactly. The FIRST day was described in Genesis 1.
It is not time itself.
Before the first day: there wasn't time.
Time is its own entity apart from any such measurement of it.
If it were, God would be subject to it. He created it, just like He created space. They're co-existent. See: Einstein's basic Theory of Relativity.
 
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