The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

Arial

Active member
Yes but none of them are Apostles. The Church doesn't depend upon anyone like how she depended upon the Apostles during her infancy. They were administering the Great Commission. Establishing the Church on earth for all time.
They did not die before they accomplished their mission.
The only reason I'm pressing here is because your theory depends upon 666 specifically not referring to only Nero, and instead to a kind of 'office' that might have been 'held' once by Nero, but that will be 'held' in the future by at least one more individual human being. If 666 only means Nero, then that conflicts with your view.
I have not said it was an office. I simply said this activity of Satan, carried out through men, is ongoing, and will be until His return. Antichrst----against Christ. The devil is the force and inspiration behind it.
 

Arial

Active member
Revelation shows the final days, and it is like nothing ever before.
I'm thankful that I won't be here to see it.

It says very clearly what God is going to do, and that is like never before.

It seems like a real waste of time to talk about the Reformation period as if there could possibly be any comparison to the end days portrayed in the book of Revelation.
If you actually read my post instead of skimming them you would have noticed that I have said that during that final spiritual battle that destroys Satan, putting all of Christ's enemies under His feet, that it would be much more severe than at any other time.

Every martyr and every believer that was slaughtered during the the time of the Reformation would disagree with you about how bad it was. So would there friends and families. It won't be the worst that is to happen probably but that does not mean it was insignificant or that it wasn't also the work of antichrists seeking to destroy the church. And if you had been reading what I have written you would also know that from the futurist/amillennialist view, which is what I am presenting, (I'll do them all in good time if that would make you feel better), the series of judgements in some places parallel each other and they all move forward to the same place, the second coming of Christ.
 

Arial

Active member
Ah, so the topic has switched again.
I was amillennial at one point in time, but I certainly wouldn't want to waste your time with my trivial comments concerning my findings.

Believe it or not, I was once unaware that Jesus only came for the lost sheep of Israel.
Again, off topic, I'm sure! But, I am wondering what your comment would be on that.
A long-drawn out recitation, perhaps, on the oneness of all men?

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I would be happy to comment on it. Start a thread on it and I will. It is your topic not mine. Could you maybe get the snot out of your nose?
 

Tambora

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And I will continue to emphasize what Paul emphasizes. There is clearly a reason why Paul repeatedly emphasizes the target audience.
I'm certain there is a reason.
But what do you propose that reason would be???
We've already seen that the meeting at Jerusalem revealed that many Jewish believers were afraid of Paul because of what he had done to them before.
That might very well be the reason for it, at least until everyone had heard by someone they trusted that Paul was converted.



In TWO verses Paul mentioned the target audience FOUR times!

So you think that you've found a loophole against what Paul repeatedly emphasizes? No, you have not.
Don't know why you are implying I'm looking for loopholes, my brother.
I'm trying to add up the pieces of the puzzle just like you.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
In my opinion, no, because Peter was not preaching a different gospel than what Paul was preaching.

Since Peter had already agreed at their meeting in Jerusalem that circumcision was not needed for salvation, then Peter could not be preaching works of the law for salvation because one must keep the whole law (which included circumcision) or be guilty of the whole law.

At the Jerusalem meeting Peter says:


Acts 15:5-11 ESV​
(5) But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”​
(6) The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.​

Some believers to the part of the Pharisees thought circumcision (and keeping the whole law) was still necessary.
So it was debated among them along with Peter and Paul.


continued:​
(7) And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.​
(8) And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,​
(9) and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.​
(10) Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?​
(11) But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”​




One would have to admit that at least from that time forward Peter did not teach works of the law were necessary for salvation.
Admittedly, this was early on in the transition period, but notice how the Spirit was given as a gift. I think that matters.

Acts. 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That early gift of the Holy Spirit was not the same as what Paul taught. I don't think remission is the same as forgiven, either.

And remember what went along with it.... "water baptism", the "gift of the Holy Spirit, and the "remission" of sins.

We see they added this in Acts 15. Of course there is definitely a transitional period going on for the Apostles.

Acts 15:28-29
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
If you actually read my post instead of skimming them you would have noticed that I have said that during that final spiritual battle that destroys Satan, putting all of Christ's enemies under His feet, that it would be much more severe than at any other time.

Every martyr and every believer that was slaughtered during the the time of the Reformation would disagree with you about how bad it was. So would there friends and families. It won't be the worst that is to happen probably but that does not mean it was insignificant or that it wasn't also the work of antichrists seeking to destroy the church. And if you had been reading what I have written you would also know that from the futurist/amillennialist view, which is what I am presenting, (I'll do them all in good time if that would make you feel better), the series of judgements in some places parallel each other and they all move forward to the same place, the second coming of Christ.
It was awfully bad during the attacks by the American Indians, too. Skinning alive and all that stuff. You want to talk about that, too?
 

Tambora

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Here is a video on 666 from the futurist/amillennialist POV you might find interesting. It certainly is beautiful.
Watching this now.

In the first half it keeps saying the beast is allowed by God to persecute the saints.

This reminds me so much of Job.

Job was righteous.
Everything the righteous Job had (children, material wealth, and physical health) was allowed to be persecuted and tormented by the evil accuser.
Everything but life.

His so-called "friends" tried to tell him it was because he was not righteous.
They were the accusers.
Even his wife told him to curse God.
But Job stood firm and would not give in to the pressure of their false accusations.
He knew his life was in God's hands and no one else, no matter how much persecution came his way he would stand firm in that knowledge.

It is life that a believer seeks, not things of this world.

The ends times will be so terrible that even some of your family and friends may turn on you and pressure you to curse God for relief.
"Curse God and take the mark for relief! God isn't taking care of you like we will."
 

Clete

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Alright, it seems the dispensationalism tack has basically run its course. Let's do as Arial asks and just see whether this amillennialism idea can hold water on its own merits. Is it internally consistent?

The answer to that question is definitely, "No, it isn't!" and one of the best ways I know of to demonstrate it is to simply ask one of them to explain who the 144,000 are.

Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God preached by Jesus and His apostles is the same as the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20:4-6. The kingdom of God, they say, is a present-day reality with Christ ruling from heaven and it is a kingdom populated by all those who believe and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Which is to say that there isn't any distinction in their minds between Israel and the church and that the Jew's standing before God is identical to that of the Gentile. Whether they believe that has always been the case is a matter of debate even within their own circles but there isn't any debate at all about it being true now and that it will continue to be so long as mortal men roam the Earth, including the times described in Revelation. They flatly reject any notion that includes any talk of God ending the current church age and returning again to Israel. They don't believe that God ever turned away from Israel to begin with but that the Gentiles were simply folded in and that we are all now one big happy group and will be so from now until the end of days.

If this is so then what is going on in Revelation chapter 7?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:​
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;​
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;​
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;​
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.​
Then later in chapter 9...

Revelation 9:3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.​

In what dark universe do you have to live in not to see that this passage in chapter 7 has to do with Jews and only Jews?! Could it even possibly be any more explicit?

Clete
 
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JudgeRightly

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Not when it prevents someone from presenting their views is their thread.

In what way is me, or anyone for that matter, presenting their views in another person's thread preventing that person from presenting their own views?

Chrys, it's a forum. Barring breaking the rules, you can post just about whatever you want (within reason) and literally no other member can stop you.
 

JudgeRightly

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You have every right to present your views in your thread

In other words, I agree, but that does not inherently preclude me or anyone else from coming into your thread and pointing out perceived errors in those views, which is entirely the point Arial doesn't seem to understand, and the point we've been trying to make.
 

Arial

Active member
Watching this now.

In the first half it keeps saying the beast is allowed by God to persecute the saints.

This reminds me so much of Job.

Job was righteous.
Everything the righteous Job had (children, material wealth, and physical health) was allowed to be persecuted and tormented by the evil accuser.
Everything but life.

His so-called "friends" tried to tell him it was because he was not righteous.
They were the accusers.
Even his wife told him to curse God.
But Job stood firm and would not give in to the pressure of their false accusations.
He knew his life was in God's hands and no one else, no matter how much persecution came his way he would stand firm in that knowledge.

It is life that a believer seeks, not things of this world.

The ends times will be so terrible that even some of your family and friends may turn on you and pressure you to curse God for relief.
"Curse God and take the mark for relief! God isn't taking care of you like we will."
Exactly and right on the money. And the very central purpose of Revelation I think. To strengthen the saints, and not just for the end times, that worsening of the fury of the evil one as the time of his demise draws near, (many in history have gone through the ultimate trial---denounce Jesus or burn or have your head cut off and placed on a bridge spike, be crucified upside down)but for whatever trials and tribulations we as individuals go through in our lives. "We will stand because He is able to make us stand."

In Revelation He even lets us see what Job never saw. The back story, behind the curtain. But we miss those little but very important words (as did I) that were pointed out in the video. The beast was given. God is in control, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, death to us is nothing but an opening of the Gate that stands at the end of the hard and narrow road. And all along this road, He goes before us and is our rear guard.

We are meant to follow Him because He is God our Savior, not for the loaves and fishes.
 
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