The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I think that Dave does not realize there there are no "kill shots" in the sense that a single argument proves one or the other. But there are most certainly kill shots that disprove one or the other. And Dave has been shown several kill shots that completely and emphatically disprove the flat earth.

I wonder whether he'll ever notice that not only has there been multiple arguments that prove that a flat Earth is rationally impossible but there have been NONE that falsify the idea that the Earth is a globe.

I wonder whether he accepts flat vs globe as being the only two rationally viable options?

If so, then proving one to be rationally impossible is proof that the alternative is true.

Clete
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Once again, Dave, you exhibit one-dimensional and non-critical thinking.

At the basic level "orbit" means to travel around (usually some thing) in a circular or elliptical path. A satellite can orbit the Earth or a warplane can orbit a potential target.

You circle a target you don't orbit it.

--Dave
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
In the globe model it is said we actually look down at the horizon and it is always illustrated that way.

View attachment 26509 View attachment 26510

I don't know what the calculation is but you can see the prediction from the second pic that the higher up you go the farther down you will be looking at the horizon.

--Dave

The illustrations you present are, of course, wildly exaggerated but it is true that, assuming no hills or other obstruction, the horizon line is always slightly below an observers line of sight.

The Earth is gigantic in comparison to us and so the angle in well below the threshold of what our eyes can resolve at ground level but the further up you go, the lower the horizon line gets and the larger and larger percentage of the surface of the Earth can be viewed.

The math for figuring out the down angle of the horizon has to do with...

Wait for it!.....


THE PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM!!!


Here's a site that explains the math in detail...

https://gis.stackexchange.com/quest...wn-to-horizon-from-different-flight-altitudes

This site will do the calculations for you and will even calculate the expected atmospheric refraction!!!

https://www.metabunk.org/curve/

To achieve a 5° drop in the horizon line (ignoring atmospheric refraction), you'd have to be 79,850 ft above the surface. That's just over 15 miles up. Large aircraft are lucky to manage half that altitude.

Clete
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER

Let begin the video presentations of earth from high altitude balloons.

What do we see? Make your comments. Enjoy.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The illustrations you present are, of course, wildly exaggerated but it is true that, assuming no hills or other obstruction, the horizon line is always slightly below an observers line of sight.

The Earth is gigantic in comparison to us and so the angle in well below the threshold of what our eyes can resolve at ground level but the further up you go, the lower the horizon line gets and the larger and larger percentage of the surface of the Earth can be viewed.

The math for figuring out the down angle of the horizon has to do with...

Wait for it!.....


THE PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM!!!


Here's a site that explains the math in detail...

https://gis.stackexchange.com/quest...wn-to-horizon-from-different-flight-altitudes

This site will do the calculations for you and will even calculate the expected atmospheric refraction!!!

https://www.metabunk.org/curve/

To achieve a 5° drop in the horizon line (ignoring atmospheric refraction), you'd have to be 79,850 ft above the surface. That's just over 15 miles up. Large aircraft are lucky to manage half that altitude.

Clete

I don't make the graphs, but they need to be exaggerated in order to make their point because of the scale involved, as you have pointed out.

The horizon line from our perspective always hits us in the middle of our eyes as we look straight/level/parallel to the ground beneath us.

Since it is said that we can actually see ships sink below the curvature of the earth, we should be able to see the horizon line sink below us as we ascend.

High altitude balloons rise higher than 15 miles. If the cameras recording the ascent are set to the horizon from the beginning of the flight then we should notice a drop in the horizon if the earth is a globe. If the horizon stays at eye level then we have a flat earth.

The therum presupposes a precalculated curvature of the earth, it does not prove the curvature.

--Dave
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I'm glad to be done with this topic. Knight is asking what I would ask now... what forces are holding up the ISS as it circles the earth?

I didn't use the word "orbit". I asked... what force keeps the ISS circling above the earth??

Dave this question deserves an answer.

You don't have to have all the facts just give us a theory. Hypothesize. What could possibly keep an object similar in shape and size to several winnebagos stuck together hovering above the flat earth??
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I'm pretty sure my post contained significantly more than four words. Instead of replying to my substantive and detailed response you focused on a single word because you have no idea of its meaning (even though you were told).

You should close this thread because you prove yourself an idiot with every one of your posts.

supra-
a prefix meaning “above, over” (supraorbital) or “beyond the limits of, outside of” (supramolecular; suprasegmental).

I merely thought you were using the word "supra" to mean a supra-refraction or a supra-mirage.

You were not specific so I was not sure what you were getting at. And obviously I was not aware of the legal use of the word.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
No, its evidence of refraction caused by the Earth's atmosphere. As I've told you before one can NEVER see the actual object they are "looking" at. What we see, you included, is light reflected off of the object or light emitted from the object even if the object is inches in front of your eye(s). All we EVER see is an image of the object, NEVER the object itself.

A refraction is a change in direction of light rays.

Not all light rays change direction.

Therefore not everything we see is a refraction.

--Dave
 

chair

Well-known member
A refraction is a change in direction of light rays.

Not all light rays change direction.

Therefore not everything we see is a refraction.

--Dave

He didn't say that "everything we see is a refraction". I suggest you read his post again, carefully.

Still, considering that what we see (and here I mean everything we see) goes through the lens of our eye, forming an image on our retina, it would be fair to say that "everything we see is a refraction". Note that a lens works by refracting light.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
He didn't say that "everything we see is a refraction". I suggest you read his post again, carefully.

Still, considering that what we see (and here I mean everything we see) goes through the lens of our eye, forming an image on our retina, it would be fair to say that "everything we see is a refraction". Note that a lens works by refracting light.

When we speak of atmospheric refraction we're not talking about what's happening inside our eye we're talking about what's happening outside of our eye.

Not everything is being refracted outside of our eye due to atmospheric conditions.

We always see the actual world before us unless certain, irregular, atmospheric conditions prevail.

We always see the world in perspective. Perspective is a fundamental truth that must be denied in order for us to accept the globe.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dave this question deserves an answer.

You don't have to have all the facts just give us a theory. Hypothesize. What could possibly keep an object similar in shape and size to several winnebagos stuck together hovering above the flat earth??

How Electromagnetic Propulsion Will Work
"For decades, the only means of space travel have been rocket engines that run off of chemical propulsion. Now, at the beginning of the 21st century, aerospace engineers are devising innovative ways to take us to the stars, including light propulsion, nuclear-fusion propulsion and antimatter propulsion.

"A new type of spacecraft that lacks any propellant is also being proposed. This type of spacecraft, which would be jolted through space by electromagnets, could take us farther than any of these other methods." --How Stuff Works

My guess is that NASA is already using electromagnetic propulsion thanks to Tesla.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER

No one has to see the whole video to get the point I'm making about what we actually see from high altitude balloons vs what we see from the ISS.

--Dave
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The horizon line from our perspective always hits us in the middle of our eyes as we look straight/level/parallel to the ground beneath us.
No David, it doesn't. It's close but not quite.

In fact, it is very close. Close in the same sense the surface of water is level. It's actually very slightly curved but so slightly that for practical purposes, it's fine to discuss it in terms of being flat and level.

But close isn't exact. In actual fact, the theoretical horizon (i.e. the horizon line assuming no hills or other obstructions) is .043° below "the middle of our eyes", as you put it. A long way below the resolution of our vision.

Since it is said that we can actually see ships sink below the curvature of the earth, we should be able to see the horizon line sink below us as we ascend.
The horizon line drop is much slower as you ascend than it is as you move along the surface. This is because you can see more and more of the surface as you ascend. But you can actually see the drop, if you go high enough and are paying close enough attention. At 40,000 ft, where large commercial aircraft cruse, the drop is about 2.5° which is the equivalent of about 5 widths of the full Moon. That not so much that you'd likely notice it from a plane for two reasons. First because it's not a huge difference and second because from that altitude, you lose easily recognizable reference points. But, as I said, if you're paying close attention, it would be detectable with the naked eye.

High altitude balloons rise higher than 15 miles. If the cameras recording the ascent are set to the horizon from the beginning of the flight then we should notice a drop in the horizon if the earth is a globe. If the horizon stays at eye level then we have a flat earth.
It would be all but physically impossible to "set the camera at the horizon" in a weather balloon, which is anything but a stable platform.

Further, something pretty close to 100% of cameras sent up on high altitude air craft (including balloon) are equipped with extremely wide angle, if not actual 'fish-eye' lenses, which give nice wide field of view images in exchange for distortions.

Interestingly, the distortions could actually be used to do the measurement. The horizon would only look flat in such a camera when the horizon line was passing directly through the center of the image (i.e. when the camera was pointed directly at the horizon). Any deviation above or below the horizon line would "bend" the horizon in the image. You could conceivable set up a computer to make constant adjustments to the camera angle to maintain a flat horizon line, which would force it to look further and further down as the altitude increased. This wouldn't give a perfect reading of the down angle because, while adjusting for the horizon line drop, it would also adjust for the actual curvature of the Earth itself which becomes more and more pronounced with altitude. As a result, any such experiment would give a larger down angle than is actually caused by the horizon line drop itself.

The therum presupposes a precalculated curvature of the earth, it does not prove the curvature.

--Dave
The Pythagorean Theorem has nothing to do with assuming anything at all. It has to do with the nature of right triangles - period. But no one suggested that the calculations themselves prove anything anyway, David.

If this were a new idea and this were still in the hypothesis stage of scientific inquiry, then the calculations would be considered a prediction of the globe Earth hypothesis.

The FET says the horizon line doesn't drop but the reality is that it does. Not only does it drop but it drops exactly in accordance with the math that you've been shown.

Yes, people have actually measured it...

Measuring Horizon Drop And Earth's Equatorial Bulge From Rocket Launches

Once again, the FET is flatly falsified by empirical data and the Pythagorean Theorem.

Once again, you will not be convinced.

Clete
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Just some screenshots I took of the livestream David has so kindly linked to.
7af230d0db80b6b8aaed460c6f19fbb3.jpg
0f123ddf30eeb8005245286c57d430fb.jpg
c5ce40eba69157e89a3b33e0d7f9d7ce.jpg

66672615e0dc69b23acf782bd3850b48.jpg


Notice how the horizon is curved (better seen in the livestream itself) the same way no matter where Earth is in the frame?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber

Fisheye lens vs no fisheye lens

--Dave

Wow. I spend I don't know how many months refusing to watch any of your stupid videos and then the one time I decide to hit the play button, the reason for my video boycott is reaffirmed and totally justified.

You cannot possibly believe that the video is shot all with the same camera! One camera is shooting straight down, the other off to the side. There's no evidence whatsoever that the high altitude images are related in any way to the balloon launch images. The video simply hard cuts to the high altitude images with no continuity whatsoever and the camera was never shown nor was the way it was set up and so you have no idea what sort of lens in being used at all. It's doesn't appear to be a fish eye but it doesn't have to be.

These videos are so ridiculously not convincing to anyone who can think, you really ought to rethink your willingness to post them. They do yourself no credit at all. In fact, they make you look stupid and naive.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Just some screenshots I took of the livestream David has so kindly linked to.
7af230d0db80b6b8aaed460c6f19fbb3.jpg
0f123ddf30eeb8005245286c57d430fb.jpg
c5ce40eba69157e89a3b33e0d7f9d7ce.jpg

66672615e0dc69b23acf782bd3850b48.jpg


Notice how the horizon is curved (better seen in the livestream itself) the same way no matter where Earth is in the frame?

"no matter where the Earth is in the frame"

That is the key point.

Notice also that the edges of solar cell array are nice and straight all the way to the edges of the images. There's no way to make the horizon curve without making the edges of those solar arrays curve as well. Unless you think that the solar array was manufactured with edges that are curved in just the exactly right manner so as to create the illusion of a round Earth beneath those solar arrays. Then again, there's always the Special FX catch all bin used to explain away all inconvenient video.

Clete
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top