The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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Aimiel

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You've missed the fact that God was already forgiving, he has always been forgiving.
No, I haven't, but apparently you have. His mercy is the cross.
God is merciful and Loving.
Yes, that's why He judged Sodom & Gomorrah... so AIDS wouldn't destroy all human life on the earth.
Man made religion created the sacrificial system, not the real God.
God instituted it from the foundation of the earth.
Jesus said their father was the devil.
It's true: whomever you loan your members to is your father... that's why you are in agreement with demons.
"Sin payment" is from evolved religion, Jesus never taught any such thing.
Actually, He did. We have Holy Scripture's assurance of that.
Paul, his Pagan beliefs and his Pagan followers are the ones who created Christianity, so naturally they interpret Jesus through their primitive, man made religious concepts.
God inspired Paul, not YOUR father: :devil:
 

Burning Bush

New member
Human sacrifice was not a part of the original Gospel of Jesus, he taught repentance and faith based spiritual transformation. The new wine was put into the old wine skins, Jesus warned them not to do that.

Blood sacrifice was already well established among the Jews, who rejected Jesus and the Pagans, who accepted Paul’s modified version of Jesus' gospel.

Spiritual salvation is real and experiencable >now<

Blood sacrifice is theoretical, a future hopes, be it ever so barbaric and backwards. Caino

You have the same doctrine as Satan, whose thought Peter repeated, when he told Jesus he didn't have to go to the cross and die. Jesus's response was to rebuke Satan.

When Jesus prayed in the garden, and accepted His FATHER'S WILL, pity you weren't there to take that cup from Him, since your doctrine is so vastly superior to that of either Jesus, or the Father. Wake up and stop eating swine's flesh!
 

Caino

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You have the same doctrine as Satan, whose thought Peter repeated, when he told Jesus he didn't have to go to the cross and die. Jesus's response was to rebuke Satan.

When Jesus prayed in the garden, and accepted His FATHER'S WILL, pity you weren't there to take that cup from Him, since your doctrine is so vastly superior to that of either Jesus, or the Father. Wake up and stop eating swine's flesh!


God does not now, nor has he ever, nor will he ever regret anything that he has done, is doing or will ever do.

Original sin as a concept was barrowed from the Persians and incorporated into the OT books when the Hebrew priest rewrote the whole thing.

Jesus' original gospel was superior to the old ideas of "the chosen people."

Jesus chose to lay his life down and he resurrected himself in a new form. No sacrifice involved.

.....hey Aimiel, there’s a demon behind you!....naw, just kidding.......no really, there a demon under your bed......naw, just kidding,....no I’m not.....yes I am....no, really just kidding.:angrymob:


Colter
 

SimplyHisSheep

New member
You have the same doctrine as Satan, whose thought Peter repeated, when he told Jesus he didn't have to go to the cross and die. Jesus's response was to rebuke Satan.

When Jesus prayed in the garden, and accepted His FATHER'S WILL, pity you weren't there to take that cup from Him, since your doctrine is so vastly superior to that of either Jesus, or the Father. Wake up and stop eating swine's flesh!

WOW! That hit me like a ton of bricks.

Truth!
 

Burning Bush

New member
God does not now, nor has he ever, nor will he ever regret anything that he has done, is doing or will ever do.

Original sin as a concept was barrowed from the Persians and incorporated into the OT books when the Hebrew priest rewrote the whole thing.

Nonsense. If for no other reason to believe, the Torah is perfect in letter sequences, and IMPOSSIBLE for man to write in such perfection.

Jesus' original gospel was superior to the old ideas of "the chosen people."

Jesus's "original gospel" is and always has been, Christ and Him crucified. The High Priest Caiphais, PROPHESIED BY THE HOLY GHOST, that it was necessary that one man die for the people = a sacrifice.

The principle is, life comes from death. Another principle: the body can only do what it sees it's head do. Father is the Head of Christ, Christ saw the Father "die" by pouring Himself into His creation, and so He did what He saw His Head do.

And if your head was Christ, you would see this and die to self, the act of which includes dying to the rebellion that is keeping you bound to doctrines of devils.


Jesus chose to lay his life down and he resurrected himself in a new form. No sacrifice involved.

He chose to be obedient to His Father's will. Were it NOT His Father's will He was submitted to, NO MAN could have taken it from Him, as He testified.

.....hey Aimiel, there’s a demon behind you!....naw, just kidding.......no really, there a demon under your bed......naw, just kidding,....no I’m not.....yes I am....no, really just kidding.:angrymob:




Colter
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Original sin as a concept was barrowed from the Persians and incorporated into the OT books when the Hebrew priest rewrote the whole thing.
It's mostly only Catholics who believe in original sin. Humans create their own sin, and don't need any passed on to them from their ancestors.
Jesus chose to lay his life down and he resurrected himself in a new form. No sacrifice involved.
That's merely treading underfoot The Very Blood of Jesus: pure blasphemy.
.....hey Aimiel, there’s a demon behind you!....naw, just kidding.......no really, there a demon under your bed......naw, just kidding,....no I’m not.....yes I am....no, really just kidding.
Demons aren't omni-present. I have One inside me who is though: The Holy Ghost. Demons recognize me due to His Presence, and flee.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Why am I not surprised that the demons would want to do away with the blood, since without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins. And I'm not even talking about just His literal natural blood, which was a type and shadow of the true.

What arrogance they have! To presume to know better than God and to assess His sacrifice as "primitive"!

There are other ways of atonement without the necessity for any animal or man having to die (shed blood) to afford it -

Atonement without blood

And yes,...older superstitious ideas of vicarious blood atonement are primitive and outdated, besides illogical...since these deny the principles of 'karmic law' and personal 'self-responsibility'. Every soul is responsible for its own sins and salvation, inasmuch as it has the true freedom of choice and personal free will to determine its condition and final destiny. Repentance is key, then availing onself the grace and divine helps found within and without.


pj
 

Caino

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* Days before his death the apostles didn't even know he was leaving. Sacrifice was never central to Jesus teaching or conditional to receiving forgiveness. We are forgiven as we forgive others.

* Jesus and the 12 taught a gospel 3+ years before his death. Sacrificial atonement was not central to that gospel however it was central to Pagan doctrines in Rome where Christianity found a home.

* Jesus said that the purpose of his death was to establish his authority, not a "sacrifice". John 2:19-21

• It was the will of God that Jesus pass thought the death experience, self centered men assume it was for them. The death experience was a requirement for achieving unquestioned sovereignty of Jesus’ own co-created universe. Pagan/Jewish Paul interpreted the death through the lens of his old sacrificial religion.

* Knowing the primitive mind of that age, Jesus let the world interpret the meaning of his death up until a more enlightened age that could see more clearly.



Caino
 

Caino

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It's mostly only Catholics who believe in original sin. Humans create their own sin, and don't need any passed on to them from their ancestors. That's merely treading underfoot The Very Blood of Jesus: pure blasphemy.Demons aren't omni-present. I have One inside me who is though: The Holy Ghost. Demons recognize me due to His Presence, and flee.


Know your bible:

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."



Caino
 

Caino

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MEANING OF THE DEATH ON THE CROSS

188:4.1 Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the “World of the Cross.”

188:4.2 Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master’s death.

188:4.3 Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil-doing of his ancestors. Neither was the Master’s death on the cross a sacrifice which consisted in an effort to pay God a debt which the race of mankind had come to owe him. *

188:4.4 Before Jesus lived on earth, you might possibly have been justified in believing in such a God, but not since the Master lived and died among your fellow mortals. Moses taught the dignity and justice of a Creator God; but Jesus portrayed the love and mercy of a heavenly Father.

188:4.5 The animal nature—the tendency toward evil-doing—may be hereditary, but sin is not transmitted from parent to child. Sin is the act of conscious and deliberate rebellion against the Father’s will and the Sons’ laws by an individual will creature. *

188:4.6 Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia, it is nevertheless a fact that his bestowal on this world greatly illuminated the way of salvation; his death did much to make forever plain the certainty of mortal survival after death in the flesh.

188:4.7 Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.

188:4.8 When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

188:4.11 Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

188:4.12 The great thing about the death of Jesus, as it is related to the enrichment of human experience and the enlargement of the way of salvation, is not the fact of his death but rather the superb manner and the matchless spirit in which he met death.

188:4.13 This entire idea of the ransom of the atonement places salvation upon a plane of unreality; such a concept is purely philosophic. Human salvation is real; it is based on two realities which may be grasped by the creature’s faith and thereby become incorporated into individual human experience: the fact of the fatherhood of God and its correlated truth, the brotherhood of man. It is true, after all, that you are to be “forgiven your debts, even as you forgive your debtors.”



Caino
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
There are other ways of atonement without the necessity for any animal or man having to die (shed blood) to afford it -
Sure there are, there's also people who believe in gods with elephant's heads, too. It doesn't make them real.
And yes,...older superstitious ideas of vicarious blood atonement are primitive and outdated, besides illogical...since these deny the principles of 'karmic law' and personal 'self-responsibility'.
Yes, Jesus' atonement does do away with our sin, but not our responsibility to keep away from sin.
Every soul is responsible for its own sins and salvation, inasmuch as it has the true freedom of choice and personal free will to determine its condition and final destiny.
But God requires us to be completely holy, and the only way to achieve that is Jesus' Blood.
Repentance is key, then availing (oneself) (of) the grace and divine helps found within and without.
Without repentance one cannot be born again. There are many 'keys' to eternal life, but Christ explained them all and gave us His Blood to bring us into His Kingdom. If you're not under The Blood, you have no part in His Kingdom.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Know your* bible:

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
He does have that authority, which is why every single Christian needs to be aware that anyone can fall from grace, no matter how high they think they've climbed.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

"Once saved: always saved," isn't in The Bible and isn't the least bit Scriptural.

* MY Bible? I'm flattered, but I didn't write The Word of God, holy men of old did and wrote what The Holy Spirit inspired.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The fact that Jesus never sinned meant: He didn't have to pay the price which was placed upon mortal men for their sin: death. He gave His Life willingly, not a 'part of life' of His Life or 'last act' in this mortal drama. He surrendered to the forces of darkness because of His Covenant with The Father which He cut in His Own Blood in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before. That was where He bought us: in His New Covenant with The Father that He cut the night before. He merely paid what He had promised (His Life) the next day after having surrendered His Life to His enemies by obeying The Father completely. Never having sinned, when He was put to death He is now therefore allowed to impute His Life to anyone and everyone who might believe in Him, since He took death without earning that punishment.
 

Caino

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The fact that Jesus never sinned meant: He didn't have to pay the price which was placed upon mortal men for their sin: death. He gave His Life willingly, not a 'part of life' of His Life or 'last act' in this mortal drama. He surrendered to the forces of darkness because of His Covenant with The Father which He cut in His Own Blood in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before. That was where He bought us: in His New Covenant with The Father that He cut the night before. He merely paid what He had promised (His Life) the next day after having surrendered His Life to His enemies by obeying The Father completely. Never having sinned, when He was put to death He is now therefore allowed to impute His Life to anyone and everyone who might believe in Him, since He took death without earning that punishment.

There's just one problem, that’s not the religion of Jesus. That's one variation of the watered down religion about Jesus.

God is changeless, Jewish men who became believers in Jesus, needed a theological way to explain why they left their sacrificial religion and joined Jesus; they made him the final sacrifice. Problem solved, however untrue it satisfied their collective conscience.




Caino
 

Caino

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He does have that authority, which is why every single Christian needs to be aware that anyone can fall from grace, no matter how high they think they've climbed.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

"Once saved: always saved,"
isn't in The Bible and isn't the least bit Scriptural.

* MY Bible? I'm flattered, but I didn't write The Word of God, holy men of old did and wrote what The Holy Spirit inspired.



Never said it was, you are hearing things. Salvation can be taken for granted by those who maintain an ongoing, faith based relationship with the Living God, not theoretical sacrifices. Should one turn away from God and reject salvation then they will not awake from the sleep of death, which IS what Hell is.



Caino
 

Livelystone

New member
The fact that Jesus never sinned meant: He didn't have to pay the price which was placed upon mortal men for their sin: death. He gave His Life willingly, not a 'part of life' of His Life or 'last act' in this mortal drama. He surrendered to the forces of darkness because of His Covenant with The Father which He cut in His Own Blood in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before. That was where He bought us: in His New Covenant with The Father that He cut the night before. He merely paid what He had promised (His Life) the next day after having surrendered His Life to His enemies by obeying The Father completely. Never having sinned, when He was put to death He is now therefore allowed to impute His Life to anyone and everyone who might believe in Him, since He took death without earning that punishment.

Greetings

What I have in bold highlight is a very interesting observation. Is this something that has been revealed to you in the spirit as in hearing it from God, or did you get it from some other Scriptures than just the one about sweating blood?

I am not saying I disagree with you whatsoever, actually, I felt a witness and just wanted to hear from you as to how you came up with that.

If you would rather do it by PM that is fine with me.

Thanks in advance

Doug
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
* Days before his death the apostles didn't even know he was leaving. Sacrifice was never central to Jesus teaching or conditional to receiving forgiveness. We are forgiven as we forgive others.

* Jesus and the 12 taught a gospel 3+ years before his death. Sacrificial atonement was not central to that gospel however it was central to Pagan doctrines in Rome where Christianity found a home.

* Jesus said that the purpose of his death was to establish his authority, not a "sacrifice". John 2:19-21

• It was the will of God that Jesus pass thought the death experience, self centered men assume it was for them. The death experience was a requirement for achieving unquestioned sovereignty of Jesus’ own co-created universe. Pagan/Jewish Paul interpreted the death through the lens of his old sacrificial religion.

* Knowing the primitive mind of that age, Jesus let the world interpret the meaning of his death up until a more enlightened age that could see more clearly.



Caino


Yes,....we all have the power to forgive. Jesus came to show us the power of forgiveness. We are forgiven as we forgive others, - we have the keys to bind or loose as ministers of the kingdom.



pj
 

Caino

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Banned
Yes,....we all have the power to forgive. Jesus came to show us the power of forgiveness. We are forgiven as we forgive others, - we have the keys to bind or loose as ministers of the kingdom.




pj


True Freelight, people overlook the triumphant. LIFE of Jesus when they take the easier path of believing his DEATH to be a sacrifice. Jesus demonstrated salvation by doing Gods will in his life, he proved conclusively life after death by resurrecting himself from the dead.

Pagan blood sacrifice is a cop out from the path of real spiritual transformation.

Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
True Freelight, people overlook the triumphant. LIFE of Jesus when they take the easier path of believing his DEATH to be a sacrifice. Jesus demonstrated salvation by doing Gods will in his life, he proved conclusively life after death by resurrecting himself from the dead.

Pagan blood sacrifice is a cop out from the path of real spiritual transformation.

Caino

Bingo.....although as a mystic I do find that meanings and values behind religious symbols and elements can be helpful on the spiritual path, depending on how that translates into actual spiritual transformation and fulfilling one's religious vocation. In this sense as an eclectic, I can reference symbols from various religious traditions and incorporate such into a university, from which each 'class' has its own offerings. But perhaps I digress :)

Blood is a powerful element, symbol and metaphor, but what avails is the actual doing of God's will, living righteously. No substitutes for that.


pj
 

Caino

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Banned
Bingo.....although as a mystic I do find that meanings and values behind religious symbols and elements can be helpful on the spiritual path, depending on how that translates into actual spiritual transformation and fulfilling one's religious vocation. In this sense as an eclectic, I can reference symbols from various religious traditions and incorporate such into a university, from which each 'class' has its own offerings. But perhaps I digress :)

Blood is a powerful element, symbol and metaphor, but what avails is the actual doing of God's will, living righteously. No substitutes for that.


pj

Freelight, did you see this incredible documentary put together by Bez Sarmast, Iranian citizen, UB reader, researcher???? Bez makes the case that Jesus deliberately "patterned" his life from birth to death and resurrection to appeal to the religious themes already in existence outside of Judaism so that when those religious groups heard the story from his missionaries they would already have familiarity thus making his life story "more acceptable".

It is well worth watching, I was amazed, even his birth corresponded with seasonal adorations within the concepts of the fertility God.

Check it out, it's in 5 parts.


http://secretsofjesuschrist.com/



Caino
 
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