toldailytopic: Is there a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
"Falling away" is not a good translation for the Greek word "APOSTASIA"
Here is the NIV:
(2 Thess 2:3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The "Great Revolt" (also called the Jewish War) started in 66AD. Josephus described the war as "APOSTASIA"
“And now I perceived innovations were already begun, and that there were a great many very much elevated, in hopes of a revolt [apostasia] from the Romans”. “When John, the son of Levi, saw some of the citizens much elevated upon their revolt [apostasia) from the Romans, he labored to restrain them; and entreated them that they would keep their allegiance to them”
Paul was telling the Thessalonians circa 60AD that before Jesus was to return the rebellion/revolt "Apostasia" had to happen first.
And, just like Paul said, the rebellion/revolt "Apostasia" happened in 66AD, and Jesus returned in 70AD
Two different events...It would be pretty difficult for the Lord to return (second coming) with all the Saints in tow unless they were already with him prior. (The Rapture)
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
StanJ53
New member
Fall, Fallen, Falling, Fell: ἀποστασία/apostasia
"a defection, revolt, apostasy," is used in the NT of religious apostasy; in Act 21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostasy from Moses." In 2Th 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.
That you would have us believe a JEWISH historian used Greek in his book is ludicrous to say the least. Maybe you can provide a citation so we can ALL look it up and verify the actual TRUTH.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/
Paul warned about false teachers like you in 2 Thess 2:2 (NIV)
Revelation has NOT yet happened obviously or John would have not written Revelation, which he wrote between 90 - 95 AD.
:carryon:
StanJ53
New member
"Apostaisa" refers to either a religious or political falling away.
Josephus wrote in Greek.
The quote I provided is from "Life 4", it can be viewed HERE
As I stated in my last post, Josephus used the Greek word "Apostaisa" to describe the political Jewish Revolt that took place in 66AD
Did you even read the link you provided?
From YOUR link:
"Although Josephus had deep misgivings about the revolt, it became inevitable,..."
As we see above, Josephus wrote about the revolt (Apostaisa)
Also from your link:
"The Life of Josephus, his autobiography, about 100."
"The Life of Josephus" is where Josephus uses the Greek word "Apostaisa" to describe the Jewish revolt that took place in 66AD
No, around 60AD Paul warned of people that claimed the resurrection had already taken place. Paul made it clear to the Thessalonians that the "apostaisa" had to take place before the Day of the Lord.
The "apostaisa" took place in 66AD, and the Day of the Lord followed in 70AD
Wrong
Revelation was written before 70AD
Had Revelation been written after 70AD, John would have mentioned that the temple was destroyed and that over a million Jews were killed.
genuineoriginal
New member
There is no difference. The Rapture is the promised Resurrection, which happens at the Second Coming.
That's the best you can do?
That site was such a joke.
Apparently the author (Craig Chilton) does not appear to understand the basic rules of English and Greek grammar.
Craig Chilton gets an "F" in demonstrative pronouns, antecedent nouns, definite articles, and demonstrative adjectives.
"I'm guessing (but not specifically date-setting) that the almost simultaneous Rapture event and the initiation of the seven-year-long Tribulation Period will happen well before 2020" - Craig Chilton
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
StanJ53
New member
Yes and in the BIBLE it is used in the context of a religious falling away.
The link you provided did NOT provide and support for your assertion that Jospehus used this Greek word. I know what you STATED, you just didn't PROVE it and still haven't.
Well then stop talking about it and let's see it.
BTW, here what another historian had to say about the traitor Josephus, who betrayed his own people to the Romans.
The historian E. Mary Smallwood wrote:
"Josephus was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side."
Author Joseph Raymond calls Josephus "the Jewish Benedict Arnold" for betraying his own troops at Jotapata.
The great Apostasy has NOT taken place and neither has the return of Jesus.
Your claims without any PROOF have NO validity what-so-ever.
Only in your preterist mind, and those of your ilk.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written shows you wrong, despite your opinion of it's authenticity or correctness.
Blind people like you, just won't accept the truth.
Your human reasoning is faulty as we can see. John wrote about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, NOT about an event that took place 25 years earlier that everyone knew about. John moved on like many Jews did. Why do you think he was on Patmos, for a vacay?
StanJ53
New member
I didn't post it for you blind man. I posted it for others who want to be able to understand and refute your preterist false teachings.
Your opinion of Craig Chilton means nothing and your out of context quote just shows how you always read truth, with an eye towards the negative.
BTW, what are your credentials for English and grammar?
No, it is used to describe a political revolt.
The New Jerusalem Bible says the following:
(2 Thess 2:3 NJB) Never let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot happen until the Great Revolt has taken place and there has appeared the wicked One, the lost One,
What do you want me to do, paste the Greek for you?
In "The Life of Josephus", Josephus uses the Greek word "Apostaisa" two times to describe the Great Revolt.
I gave you the link, go to #4 and you can see it.
I linked it in my previous post.
Are you fluent in Greek? If not, why is the English version of Josephus' book not good enough for you?
Never heard of her
Never heard of him
The Great Revolt
It is a fact that Josephus used the Greek word "Apostaisa" to describe the Jewish Revolt of 66AD. Paul used the exact same Greek word in 2 Thessalonians
The author of your link (R. Wayne Jackson) is a follower of John F. Walvoord the former president of Dallas Theological Seminary. IOW, Jackson is a dispensationalist, and dispensationalists have to claim that Revelation was written after 70AD or their dispensationalism falls apart.
Because I haven't been brainwashed by dispensationalism like you have, you think I am blind.
You're a dispensationalist.
(Rev 1:1) The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
If John wrote Revelation in 96AD as you claim, please tell us the events that "what must soon take place" happened in 96AD or soon after 96AD?
John was on Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus (Rev 1:9)
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(Matt 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
In the above verse, the word "This" is a demonstrative adjective that modifies the noun "Generation".
Using the rules of English Grammar, "this generation" can only refer to the contemporaries of Jesus in the first century.
To make "this generation" mean anything else than the contemporaries of Jesus in the first century, the rules of English Grammar have to be thrown out the window.
Try proving me wrong using proper English Grammar?
Try proving me wrong using proper Greek Grammar?
You won't be able to.
Your buddy Craig Chilton also said the following in your link:
"the way events are culminating, it's probable that over 90% of those alive as you are reading these words will still be alive to experience them first-hand"
Chilton wrote the above in 2009
Using the "crude death rate" of the world, time is running out for Chilton's prediction.
StanJ53
New member
You're just like most preterists and unitarians. You scour the English translations to look for one that will support you bias.
I can do that as well, as follows; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2:3&version=HCSB;NKJV;NASB;YLT;KNOX
Jesus said His Kingdom was NOT of this World. John 18:36 (NIV) Obviously Paul does NOT relate to a political rebellion. Maybe you can tell us who the Man of Lawlessness was when this apparently happened?
Well if it IS there, then yes, provide the link to it IN Greek, just as I did for the Greek word in scripture. Why should we take your word for it. You gave an English translation link. Maybe you can show us at THIS link.
No, are you? Because I DON'T trust you. Put up or shut up.
So you keep saying with NO proof.
Oh I see, you don't have someone with sufficient credentials to counter him. Give me a break. That is the most absurd thing I've heard you say yet.
I've never heard of you yet for some reason you expect we should just take your word for everything you say? and you provide NO support or proof?
I KNOW you are blind at this is not my first kick at the can. I've debated many of your ilk, and NONE prove their assertions, and many lie. You're staying the course as far as I'm concerned.
WOW! No flies on you aye.
Rev 22:10-11 (NIV) and 2 Peter 3:9
What has happened in Revelation? That you don't get the immanency of the Revelation is not surprising. According to Rev 1:7 (NIV), your favorite pal Josephus should have seen Jesus' return. Did he? If ALL the children of men saw Him, where is it noted?
The fact is, it has NOT happened.
and do you KNOW what he meant?
Looks like you have a lot of work to do.
StanJ53
New member
Well we'll see around 2020 won't we. In any event I'm not big into predictions, just as I'm not big into preterism. I'll try to remember to come on TOL and say "I told ya so." Oh wait, I won't be here!
If I may interject, I found this quote:
A good case may be made in support of the view that it speaks of the Jewish apostasy/rebellion against Rome. Josephus certainly speaks of the Jewish War as an apostasia against the Romans (Josephus, Life 4). Probably Paul merges the two concepts of religious and political apostasy here, though emphasizing the outbreak of the Jewish War, which was the result of their apostasy against God.
This may be inferred from 1 Thessalonians 2:16, where Paul states of the Jews that they "always fill up the measure of their sins [i.e., religious apostasia against God]; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost [i.e., the result of political apostasia against Rome]." The apostasia [revolt] Paul mentions will lead to the military devastation of Israel (Luke 21:21-22; 23:28-31; Acts 2:16-20). The filling up of the measure of the sins of the fathers (Matt. 23:32) leads to Israel's judgment, thereby vindicating the righteous slain in Israel (Matt. 23:35; cf. Matt. 24:2-34). The apostasia of the Jews against God by rejecting their Messiah (Matt 21:37-39; 22:2-6), led to God's providentially turning them over to judgment via their apostasia against Rome (Matt. 21:40-42; 22:7).
This may be inferred from 1 Thessalonians 2:16, where Paul states of the Jews that they "always fill up the measure of their sins [i.e., religious apostasia against God]; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost [i.e., the result of political apostasia against Rome]." The apostasia [revolt] Paul mentions will lead to the military devastation of Israel (Luke 21:21-22; 23:28-31; Acts 2:16-20). The filling up of the measure of the sins of the fathers (Matt. 23:32) leads to Israel's judgment, thereby vindicating the righteous slain in Israel (Matt. 23:35; cf. Matt. 24:2-34). The apostasia of the Jews against God by rejecting their Messiah (Matt 21:37-39; 22:2-6), led to God's providentially turning them over to judgment via their apostasia against Rome (Matt. 21:40-42; 22:7).
Source: http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt550.htm
Josephus definitely wrote some of his works in Greek. You ask for a citation and here it is: In Book I of Against Apion, Josephus stated that he made Greek translations:
Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue.
Source: http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/apion-1.htm
StanJ53
New member
Yes, THE generation that sees all of what Jesus prophesied come to pass, NOT the generation He was speaking to.
If anyone wants to learn about the Olivet Discourse, just go HERE.
The rest of your professorial post is garbage as you have NOT proved you actually have ANY credentials in this regard. You have no idea.
When exactly did Matthew 24:29 (NIV) happen?