ECT What does authority in the church look like?

[vfirestormv]

The church came before the Bible and "created" the Bible

The church is what has authority, and God has authority over the Church. The problem is that the Church has been divided. There are thousands of different denominations of Christian religions and so there is a lot of confusion

I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church was the first one. But there are a few things "not right" in the Catholic Church... That doesn't mean the Church's teachings are wrong. They are not wrong. But there is a lot of evil going on, which I don't really want to get into it right now, but it all comes down to walking closely with the Lord and going where he wants, whether we want to or not and stuff like that

Catholic means universal, so yes there was a universal Church first. The RCC is not that church. They are a sect that were power hungry and distorted God's word. That is why they didn't want the laymen to have their own Bibles, because they knew that their heresy would be exposed.

 

[Jacob]

hello Untell,

These things are true, and the Spirit that gives us the 'power perfected in weakness' also calls us to bear with one another in love, to build up (and not tear down) the unity of the Body of Christ. It calls us to live for and with our brethren in Christ and through Christ, letting His Love become our love and sharing this love with one another and with the world. (we are the salt of the earth).

Now to your topic question: 'What does authority in the church look like?'

The Church as the Bride of Christ is united with HIM, and as such speaks with HIS authority, thus HE says: those who hear you hear me.... and gives to the Church the authority to 'bind and loose'.

but how is this corporate authority seen? It is vested in the bishops of the Church, whose duty it is to protect, teach, preach and pass on the 'deposit of faith' in union with Christ our head and the members whose souls they have a duty to care for, (Heb 13:17).

Peace!
PJ

I believe there are leaders in the church, the body of Christ. And this is how I understand Hebrews 13:17. Great verse. I am not a Catholic though, as I have stated.

You mention the bride of Christ. I know there is a discussion that exists somewhere in the world about who the bride of Christ is.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hi Untell,

I believe there are leaders in the church, the body of Christ. And this is how I understand Hebrews 13:17. Great verse. I am not a Catholic though, as I have stated.

All members of the Body of Christ are catholic, by definition. There can be only ONE Church, that is ONE Body of Christ. There are, of course, particular or local churches which are members of that ONE Church.

The question that follows of course is who has the authority to speak for that Church corporately and/or locally...

I believe that scripture is clear that it was the apostles who were given that authority and the men whom they ordained as elders (bishops) in the Church. And that authority is especially evident when these gather in council to reach agreement on matters that affect the whole Church ( the first such council recorded in Acts 15).

You mention the bride of Christ. I know there is a discussion that exists somewhere in the world about who the bride of Christ is.

Discussion? The Bride of Christ is the Church! how else could she be HIS body? The 2 made one flesh....(Eph 5:23-32)

And it is in the Eucharist that the Groom 'knows' his Bride and she HIM.. (John 6:54-56) further it is in participation in the Eucharist that we are indeed made ONE body. (1Cor 10:17)

There is much more I could say here, but it is digressing from your OP on authority, so I'll leave it for another thread..

Peace!
PJ

 

[DAN P]

Hi and the BUBBLE has burst here !

#1 , In the Body there ( Gal 3:28 ) CANNOT be Male nor Female as the EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLY is the Body of Christ

#2 , How can the Head of the Body marry it's members ?

#3 , It can not !!

#4 , Israel is the Bride , John 3:29 !1

$5 , Then who are the FRIENDS of the Bridegroom , in verse 29 ?

#6 Think again ??

#7 , Just when does the Ceremony take place ?

#8 , After the Great Tribulation , don't you see !!

dan p

 

[PhilipJames]

Hi and the BUBBLE has burst here !

dan p

Hi Dan,

So as not to derail this thread, I answered your post here: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106187

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hi Untell,



All members of the Body of Christ are catholic, by definition. There can be only ONE Church, that is ONE Body of Christ. There are, of course, particular or local churches which are members of that ONE Church.

The question that follows of course is who has the authority to speak for that Church corporately and/or locally...

I believe that scripture is clear that it was the apostles who were given that authority and the men whom they ordained as elders (bishops) in the Church. And that authority is especially evident when these gather in council to reach agreement on matters that affect the whole Church ( the first such council recorded in Acts 15).



Discussion? The Bride of Christ is the Church! how else could she be HIS body? The 2 made one flesh....(Eph 5:23-32)

And it is in the Eucharist that the Groom 'knows' his Bride and she HIM.. (John 6:54-56) further it is in participation in the Eucharist that we are indeed made ONE body. (1Cor 10:17)

There is much more I could say here, but it is digressing from your OP on authority, so I'll leave it for another thread..

Peace!
PJ

The church, the body of Christ, began with Christ before the universal or catholic church came to be.

You make a good point about the bride of Christ, for the church that is Christ's, His body and His bride.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Untell,

The church, the body of Christ, began with Christ before the universal or catholic church came to be.

The Church most certainly begins with Christ, her Head.

Now I don't want us talking past each other here, so by the Church 'catholic' I mean that ONE church, that ONE community, that Christ establishes on HIS apostles through the power of the Holy Spirit.
It is these apostles, in this one community, united both in Spirit and in Body (for they all share the ONE loaf) that the Gospel is spread, and that daily others are added to them.
These go forth and establish that ONE church in many places, thus you find the Church in Antioch, in Smyrna, in Ephesus, in Alexandria, in Rome.. and everywhere they ordain bishops and presbyters as elders in the churches....and all these 'local' communities are members of the ONE catholic (or universal if you prefer) Church. They all share the ONE Spirit, one Faith, one Baptism, and all partake of the ONE BREAD, that is Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is this one community of which the apostle John speaks when he says: They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. (1John2:19)

St. Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch, and a hearer of the apostle John is the first one with a recorded use of the word 'catholic' in reference to the whole Church. He says:

You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father. and the presbytery as you would the apostles. reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears' let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve. this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid (letter to the Smyrnaeans 8,1)

So then, when I refer to the Church catholic. This is what I mean. And that is what I meant when I said that all who belong to the Body of Christ are 'catholic' by definition.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hello Untell,

The Church most certainly begins with Christ, her Head.

Now I don't want us talking past each other here, so by the Church 'catholic' I mean that ONE church, that ONE community, that Christ establishes on HIS apostles through the power of the Holy Spirit.
It is these apostles, in this one community, united both in Spirit and in Body (for they all share the ONE loaf) that the Gospel is spread, and that daily others are added to them.
These go forth and establish that ONE church in many places, thus you find the Church in Antioch, in Smyrna, in Ephesus, in Alexandria, in Rome.. and everywhere they ordain bishops and presbyters as elders in the churches....and all these 'local' communities are members of the ONE catholic (or universal if you prefer) Church. They all share the ONE Spirit, one Faith, one Baptism, and all partake of the ONE BREAD, that is Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is this one community of which the apostle John speaks when he says: They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. (1John2:19)

St. Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch, and a hearer of the apostle John is the first one with a recorded use of the word 'catholic' in reference to the whole Church. He says:

You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father. and the presbytery as you would the apostles. reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears' let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve. this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid (letter to the Smyrnaeans 8,1)

So then, when I refer to the Church catholic. This is what I mean. And that is what I meant when I said that all who belong to the Body of Christ are 'catholic' by definition.

Peace!
PJ

The church in its conception was not Roman, and it still is not. The church is the body of Christ and includes all those who are born again (these have repented, being granted repentance by God, and these therefore now have faith), trusting in God and Jesus as the Christ (God's Anointed).

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Untell,

The church in its conception was not Roman, and it still is not.

Did I say that it was? (although the Church in Rome is certainly a part of it!)

The church is the body of Christ and includes all those who are born again (these have repented, being granted repentance by God, and these therefore now have faith), trusting in God and Jesus as the Christ (God's Anointed).

Absolutely agreed! All who have repented and been baptized (born again) belong to the Church. I take no issue with that whatsoever...

However is not the purpose of this thread to identify who (if anyone) has authority in HIS Kingdom, that is, in the Church catholic?

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hello Untell,



Did I say that it was? (although the Church in Rome is certainly a part of it!)

You mentioned the Church catholic which has been confused with the Church at Rome or Roman Catholicism. However, the church Jesus established was not even catholic... not even with the word catholic meaning universal.

Absolutely agreed! All who have repented and been baptized (born again) belong to the Church. I take no issue with that whatsoever...

Except you mean this to mean your Church, as far as I can tell.

However is not the purpose of this thread to identify who (if anyone) has authority in HIS Kingdom, that is, in the Church catholic?

Peace!
PJ

That should be a purpose, but I am not talking about authority in the Roman church... I am talking about authority in the church Jesus Christ Himself established.

 

[PhilipJames]

You mentioned the Church catholic which has been confused with the Church at Rome or Roman Catholicism.

I hope I have cleared up any confusion that the term may have caused. If you prefer I will instead use the 'whole' Church...

However, the church Jesus established was not even catholic... not even with the word catholic meaning universal.

Please explain. Do you mean that the church Jesus established was not united in one Spirit, one Faith, one Baptism, one communion in the Table of the Lord...?

Except you mean this to mean your Church, as far as I can tell.

I certainly mean 'my' church is part of the 'whole' Church. If I didn't believe that I would leave in a heartbeat.

That should be a purpose, but I am not talking about authority in the Roman church... I am talking about authority in the church Jesus Christ Himself established.

As am I. (although I believe the 2 are connected)

I believe it is quite clear in scripture and in the Tradition of the apostolic churches (all of them, not just Rome) that Jesus gave authority to the apostles to shepherd HIS Church, and they likewise ordained bishops and elders to follow them.

The quote I posted from Ignatius (circa 100AD) shows that this is no novel idea.

If you see it differently please share how and why?

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

I hope I have cleared up any confusion that the term may have caused. If you prefer I will instead use the 'whole' Church...

Please explain. Do you mean that the church Jesus established was not united in one Spirit, one Faith, one Baptism, one communion in the Table of the Lord...?

No, I mean the term universal in relation to the church if it can be used in reference to it did not come about until long after the church came to be.

I certainly mean 'my' church is part of the 'whole' Church. If I didn't believe that I would leave in a heartbeat.

As am I. (although I believe the 2 are connected)

I don't believe there are two churches, just one. Neither Roman nor orthodox. I know we have in scriptures mention of a multiplicity of churches, but these rather were locations or churches where the church resided.

I believe it is quite clear in scripture and in the Tradition of the apostolic churches (all of them, not just Rome) that Jesus gave authority to the apostles to shepherd HIS Church, and they likewise ordained bishops and elders to follow them.

We may need to talk about bishops and elders according to scripture, to see if there are verses mentioning either or both of these were ordained by anyone. But I disagree with you to begin with, and that also if you are talking about the Roman or even catholic church which came after the church Jesus founded or established with His apostles.

The quote I posted from Ignatius (circa 100AD) shows that this is no novel idea.

If you see it differently please share how and why?

Peace!
PJ

Your quote may be what I am referring to which is found in some "church history" though not from the Biblical period.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Untell

No, I mean the term universal in relation to the church if it can be used in reference to it did not come about until long after the church came to be.

well if the first written reference to it is about 100AD by a man who was instructed by at least the apostle John, I wouldn't call that 'long after'... but regardless:

I don't believe there are two churches, just one. Neither Roman nor orthodox. I know we have in scriptures mention of a multiplicity of churches, but these rather were locations or churches where the church resided.

You confirm here, that you believe the Church IS catholic (by definition); that is, that the Church is, and always has been, ONE! (we agree on this)

We may need to talk about bishops and elders according to scripture, to see if there are verses mentioning either or both of these were ordained by anyone.

Sure. here's one to start with: Acts 14:23 'They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.'

(The 'they' here being Barnabas and Paul)

But I disagree with you to begin with, and that also if you are talking about the Roman or even catholic church which came after the church Jesus founded or established with His apostles.

They are one and the same, but perhaps our discussions here will show that....

Your quote may be what I am referring to which is found in some "church history" though not from the Biblical period.

That quote was from the third bishop of Antioch, written around 100 AD... what do you define as the 'biblical period'? He spoke with the apostle John!
Would you like something else to recommend Ignatius? Jesus commends the church in Smyrna in Rev 2. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna and commends Ignatius in his letter.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hello Untell

well if the first written reference to it is about 100AD by a man who was instructed by at least the apostle John, I wouldn't call that 'long after'... but regardless:

At least 65 years after before a first mention hardly makes it the original plan.

You confirm here, that you believe the Church IS catholic (by definition); that is, that the Church is, and always has been, ONE! (we agree on this)

No, read it again and ask questions if you wish. I did not say this and in what I have said you can see that I did not.

Sure. here's one to start with: Acts 14:23 'They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.'

(The 'they' here being Barnabas and Paul)

Okay, a verse that includes one of the two you mentioned and I affirm it though I probably have a different translation (NASB). But this does not answer the question.

They are one and the same, but perhaps our discussions here will show that....

But this is not the purpose of the thread and also not my intention to show it forth as well as not my conviction.

That quote was from the third bishop of Antioch, written around 100 AD... what do you define as the 'biblical period'?

The time in which the Bible was written.

He spoke with the apostle John!
Would you like something else to recommend Ignatius? Jesus commends the church in Smyrna in Rev 2. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna and commends Ignatius in his letter.

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

At least 65 years after before a first mention hardly makes it the original plan.

maybe 10-20 years after the book of Revelation is written, and that by a bishop of the Church who spoke with the apostle John should give you every reason to think that it is part of the 'original plan'. Further Ignatius was a great hero of the Faith, being martyred under Trajen

No, read it again and ask questions if you wish.

"I don't believe there are two churches, just one"

and I said the Church is and has always been ONE. How are these different?

Okay, a verse that includes one of the two you mentioned and I affirm it though I probably have a different translation (NASB). But this does not answer the question.

How does that not answer this question:

to see if there are verses mentioning either or both of these were ordained by anyone

?

There are certainly more we can examine, but if we cannot agree that this shows Paul and Barnabas ordaining elders in the churches then we will have trouble discussing other verses as well...

But this is not the purpose of the thread and also not my intention to show it forth as well as not my conviction.

Is not the purpose of your thread to show forth what 'authority in the Church looks like'? It seems to me, we can hardly do that without examining who has (or has not) excercised that authority throughout the Church's history.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

maybe 10-20 years after the book of Revelation is written, and that by a bishop of the Church who spoke with the apostle John should give you every reason to think that it is part of the 'original plan'. Further Ignatius was a great hero of the Faith, being martyred under Trajen

There is no reason to believe this to be necessary, and this conclusion doesn't prop up the Roman Catholic Church.

"I don't believe there are two churches, just one"

I must have had a misunderstanding about the two churches you mentioned, thinking you were referring to the Roman system and the Eastern "orthodox" system.

and I said the Church is and has always been ONE. How are these different?



How does that not answer this question: ?

You mentioned two items, and the verse you mentioned has one item, presbyters.

There are certainly more we can examine, but if we cannot agree that this shows Paul and Barnabas ordaining elders in the churches then we will have trouble discussing other verses as well...

So far we have only looked at one verse. This makes your answer a partial answer, and from a translation other than my own.

Is not the purpose of your thread to show forth what 'authority in the Church looks like'? It seems to me, we can hardly do that without examining who has (or has not) excercised that authority throughout the Church's history.

Peace!
PJ

It's not about church history (your Church or anyone else's), it is about what the Bible reveals on the subject.

That is, there is authority in the church and it is not state authority and it is different from the authority of the scriptures. It is an authority that the scriptures speak of but which is seldom addressed. It is also a subject that answer the question of if there is any other authority than the scriptures in the life of the believer. Of course then we must begin with God as our authority, and Jesus Christ as our authority.

 

[Jacob]

Titus 1:5 NASB - For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,

 

[oatmeal]

Authority in the church serves the bread of life

And is described in many places, for this age of grace, Romans 13 is one place to start to learn from.

 

[Jacob]

Authority in the church serves the bread of life

And is described in many places, for this age of grace, Romans 13 is one place to start to learn from.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[PureX]

Why do you folks need to believe in "authorities", anyway? I don't get it.

Is it so that you can abdicate responsibility for making your own determinations about right and wrong?