ECT What does authority in the church look like?

[Jacob]

Why do you folks need to believe in "authorities", anyway? I don't get it.

Is it so that you can abdicate responsibility for making your own determinations about right and wrong?

Some believe a Christian has no authority other than God and Jesus, and indeed all Christians have this authority.

We have the Bible for an authority, or it is authoritative.

And in the Bible we learn about authority in the church. But that is a word, authority, that we can use to describe it. The point is that authority in the church is not like authority in the world. For example, we know from the Bible that the least is the greatest in the kingdom of God.

In the church it makes sense that those who are humble, and truly, would be able to make disciples the way Jesus did. And to make disciples of Jesus rather than disciples of their own.

A disciple is basically a student. A student of God and the word of God. It makes sense to follow after God. He has given each person a conscience to know right from wrong. But sometimes we need help, for example, in understanding the scriptures. Some people are gifted in communicating the gospel, for example... or explaining the scriptures at the leading of the Holy Spirit. So this is all a little bit different from people looking for a position of authority. It is instead authority demonstrated, and the work of God rather than the work of man.

To know and understand the scriptures are both important. Not everyone knows offhand what the scriptures say. Those who know can help point out what the scriptures say to those who do not. But this is basics. And God blesses those who come to Him in faith, trusting in Him and giving their life to Him because Jesus the Christ God's Son gave His life for them. In Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins because He died for us (a substitutionary death). That is true authority, laying down one's life for a friend.

John 15:13 NASB - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16 NASB - We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1 John 4:10 NASB - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[Jacob]

Romans 13:3 NASB - For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Isaiah 5:20 NASB - Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Hebrews 5:14 NASB - But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I am thinking you are looking for a description of what God's ordained are doing.

Or what they are supposed to be doing.

They serve the bread of life....

 

[PureX]

Some believe a Christian has no authority other than God and Jesus, and indeed all Christians have this authority.

We have the Bible for an authority, or it is authoritative.

And in the Bible we learn about authority in the church. But that is a word, authority, that we can use to describe it. The point is that authority in the church is not like authority in the world. For example, we know from the Bible that the least is the greatest in the kingdom of God.

In the church it makes sense that those who are humble, and truly, would be able to make disciples the way Jesus did. And to make disciples of Jesus rather than disciples of their own.

A disciple is basically a student. A student of God and the word of God. It makes sense to follow after God. He has given each person a conscience to know right from wrong. But sometimes we need help, for example, in understanding the scriptures. Some people are gifted in communicating the gospel, for example... or explaining the scriptures at the leading of the Holy Spirit. So this is all a little bit different from people looking for a position of authority. It is instead authority demonstrated, and the work of God rather than the work of man.

To know and understand the scriptures are both important. Not everyone knows offhand what the scriptures say. Those who know can help point out what the scriptures say to those who do not. But this is basics. And God blesses those who come to Him in faith, trusting in Him and giving their life to Him because Jesus the Christ God's Son gave His life for them. In Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins because He died for us (a substitutionary death). That is true authority, laying down one's life for a friend.

John 15:13 NASB - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16 NASB - We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1 John 4:10 NASB - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

But you're not answering my question.

I would really like to know WHY you have adopted all these "authorities" for yourselves. Why do you need them? Why can't you determine for yourselves what you believe to be right and wrong/truth and untruth? Why must you adopt "authorities" (doctrines, books, religious leaders, etc.) to tell you these things?

 

[Totton Linnet]

I believe this is a great, important, and timely question for another thread in this forum. The first thoughts basis for background on this question are as follows, which I borrow from another thread.

ECT: NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN'S ONLY AUTHORITY




It is true that I am not a Catholic. But as a Bible believer and a Christian I find this question to be important.

Apparently it is important, I do believe, that true power is perfected in weakness, which is contrary to what many might believe. Is this a statement that reflects true personal or spiritual transformation and a humility for those who have experienced God's saving grace (in that we are not saved by works we have nothing to boast about (Romans 11:6 or other verse in Romans, Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB, Titus 3:5))?

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Authority has always been a problem in the church, just look at the difficulty Paul had, even though the churches were his planting.

The problem is this.

God's power is for building up not for tearing down, it is for knitting together in love not for destroying.

Look at how Paul exercised authority in Corinth and other places. By exhortation, by cajoling, wooing, pleading, begging them. How loath he was to be stern...but as apostle he did have that power.

It is the parable of the wheat and tares when the servants would pull up the tares but God said no, lest in pulling up the tares the wheat is destroyed.

In the matter of flagrant sin at Corinth Paul commanded that the local assembly deal with it themselves. THAT is where the authority is in the local assembly.

 

[Jacob]

I am thinking you are looking for a description of what God's ordained are doing.

Or what they are supposed to be doing.

They serve the bread of life....

What are you talking about?

You mention God's ordained, but I don't know what you mean.

You mention "they serve the bread of life" but I don't know what you mean.

 

[Jacob]

Luke 9:48 NASB - and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great."

 

[Jacob]

But you're not answering my question.

I would really like to know WHY you have adopted all these "authorities" for yourselves. Why do you need them? Why can't you determine for yourselves what you believe to be right and wrong/truth and untruth? Why must you adopt "authorities" (doctrines, books, religious leaders, etc.) to tell you these things?

The point isn't to adopt authorities, it is to serve God and His Son Jesus Christ in return for what they have done for me and also just because of who They are and who I am as a creation of God.

As for authorities I am simply acknowledging that they exist. But to be honest being around people in church is more like "what is God doing here" than it is about "who is the authority here".

 

[Jacob]

Authority has always been a problem in the church, just look at the difficulty Paul had, even though the churches were his planting.

The problem is this.

God's power is for building up not for tearing down, it is for knitting together in love not for destroying.

Look at how Paul exercised authority in Corinth and other places. By exhortation, by cajoling, wooing, pleading, begging them. How loath he was to be stern...but as apostle he did have that power.

It is the parable of the wheat and tares when the servants would pull up the tares but God said no, lest in pulling up the tares the wheat is destroyed.

In the matter of flagrant sin at Corinth Paul commanded that the local assembly deal with it themselves. THAT is where the authority is in the local assembly.

Would you say authority is a problem for any given reason?

It sounds like you might be implying that it is often not talked about because people see it to be a problem, but I am not sure of what you are saying.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No I am saying you can't beat sheep, they will just scatter or lay down to die. You can only lead sheep, THAT is the problem of authority in the church. People have it in their minds that God's flock must or can be driven like cattle.

Even keeping the wolf out can be a problem, it shows in Paul's ministry for everywhere he went the wolves followed on behind. He rebuked the wolves in no uncertain terms but he charged the elders with the task of guarding the flock.

I am saying that authority must be exercised by the local church.

That would always have cut the ground out from under the Catholic usurpation.

 

[PureX]

The point isn't to adopt authorities, it is to serve God and His Son Jesus Christ in return for what they have done for me and also just because of who They are and who I am as a creation of God.

I see Christianity as being a lot about becoming who I was created to be, by God, as opposed to who I think I am (according to my own ego) or who someone else told me I should be. Jesus spoke often about letting go of ourselves, to become ourselves: meaning (as I understand it) letting go of our ego-centric ideas about who we are and who we're supposed to be, so that we can finally become who we were created to be as spontaneous, loving, and free "children of God". I see this revelation of Christ as our being set free from the many false authorities that our human sins, fears, and egos generate; through the realization that there is only one "authority", and that is the "author of our souls" - God. The reason the church elders wanted to get rid of Jesus was precisely because his words were setting people free from their presumed "authority", and they weren't willing to give it up.

For me, Jesus (as Christ) is a lot about setting people free from religion, and from religious "authorities". Which is a message I love and appreciate very deeply. And is why I reject any kind of human religious and spiritual "authorities" whenever I encounter them.

As for authorities I am simply acknowledging that they exist.

Why? Why are you endowing religious books and dogmas with the divine authority that belongs only to God? Why not just allow God to be your one and only authority? And let God's spirit of love and forgiveness and kindness and generosity that lives within you (as you were created in His image) guide your thoughts and actions in life?

It's like I'm seeing people turning to religion to be their God, and to teach them how to live, instead of turning to the spirit of God in their own hearts (Christ) and living through it.

 

[Jacob]

I see Christianity as being a lot about becoming who I (we) was created to be, by God, as opposed to who I think I am, or should be, according to my own ego (and upbringing). Jesus spoke often about letting go of ourselves, to become ourselves: meaning (as I understand it) letting go of our ego-centric ideas about who we are and who we're supposed to be, so that we can finally become who we really are and were created to be, as spontaneous, loving, and free "children of God". I see this revelation of Christ as our being set free from the many false authorities that our human sins, fears, and egos generate; through the realization that there is only one "authority", and that is the "author of our souls" - God. The reason the church elders wanted to get rid of Jesus was precisely because his words were setting people free from their presumed "authority", and they weren't willing to give it up.

For me, Jesus (as Christ) is a lot about setting people free from religion, and from religious "authorities". Which is a message I love and appreciate very deeply. And is why I reject any kind of religious and spiritual "authorities" whenever I encounter them.
Why? Why are you endowing religious books and dogmas with the divine authority that belongs only to God? Why not just allow God to be your one and only authority? And let God's spirit of love and forgiveness and kindness and generosity that lives within you (as you were created in His image) guide your thoughts and actions in life?

It's like I'm seeing people turning to religion to be their God, and to teach them how to live, instead of turning to the spirit of God in their own hearts (Christ) and living through it.

Here is a study with the word "conformed" that may be helpful: conformed <- LINK.

You are right that our authority should be God. As for authority in the church we can go to the scriptures to see what that should look like.

 

[PureX]

Here is a study with the word "conformed" that may be helpful…

Why would I want to be "conformed"?

You are right that our authority should be God. As for authority in the church we can go to the scriptures to see what that should look like.

The church and the scriptures are not my God. I don't need to go to them to tell me what to think or how to live. I have God's spirit within me to define me at any given moment. My only task is to let this spirit be my guide, instead of my own fears and ego. To the extent that religiosity can help me do this, it's useful. Otherwise, it's useless, and can often even be harmful.

This is how I view religion. It's certainly not something I ever want to idolize!

 

[Jacob]

Why would I want to be "conformed"?

Some of the verses are about not conforming. Such as in not conforming to the pattern we see in the world that is set against God. Rather we should be transformed in the renewing of our mind. We need to approve of the things God wants us to.

But these things are understood by those who forsake sin in favor of living for God. And these are those who understand their need for repentance and the grace of God in Jesus Christ who died for them for the forgiveness of their sins and that we would be granted the gift of eternal life. We leave sin which leads to death and in its place we have obedience which leads to righteousness and eternal life.

The church and the scriptures are not my God.

They shouldn't be. But the scripture and the church may both be helpful for your spiritual growth, because they are from God.

I don't need to go to them to tell me what to think or how to live. I have God's spirit within me to define me at any given moment.

There are verses in the Bible that tells us about the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you you know you are temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are saved and born again, and that you have been forgiven your sin which you can overcome and leave in the past.

My only task is to let this spirit be my guide, instead of my own fears and ego. To the extent that religiosity can help me do this, it's useful. Otherwise, it's useless, and can often even be harmful.

This is how I view religion. It's certainly not something I ever want to idolize!

Not a spirit guide Holy Spirit. Although the Holy Spirit will lead you in all righteousness.

Romans 8:9.

 

[oatmeal]

What are you talking about?

You mention God's ordained, but I don't know what you mean.

You mention "they serve the bread of life" but I don't know what you mean.

Now I think I get your thread.

God's written word is the ultimate authority in the Christian Church as administered and ministered to the believers by those who God has given authority to lead it according to what is written in scriptures.

The absolute foundation of authority is the written word of God.

But we must have God ordained leaders in the church that function accurately and authoritatively in the church for the church to properly function and mature and edify itself in love.

I should have been more on topic and now I think I am

 

[Jacob]

Now I think I get your thread.

God's written word is the ultimate authority in the Christian Church as administered and ministered to the believers by those who God has given authority to lead it according to what is written in scriptures.

The absolute foundation of authority is the written word of God.

But we must have God ordained leaders in the church that function accurately and authoritatively in the church for the church to properly function and mature and edify itself in love.

I should have been more on topic and now I think I am

Sounds great. That the church should not operate without the scriptures is an understatement. But there is such a thing as a church leader or authority in the church. It just needs to be God given, as an authority anywhere including outside of the church is... but often a role according to giftedness rather than a position gained by satisfying the requirements (which still should be there) for a leader in the church as given by the scriptures, which are the written word of God, themselves/itself. That is, we often have positions in the church... but we know from the scriptures that whatever authority exists exists by God. Even if it is not called giftedness and called a role, or even if it is not just a leader but an office or gifting according to the Spirit of God. Call it an authority or a position or a role or an office, or call it men fulfilling God's calling on their life, who are above reproach.

 

[PhilipJames]

Hello Untell,

I must have had a misunderstanding about the two churches you mentioned, thinking you were referring to the Roman system and the Eastern "orthodox" system.

Are we agreed then that the Church is, and has always been ONE?

You mentioned two items, and the verse you mentioned has one item, presbyters.

So far we have only looked at one verse. This makes your answer a partial answer, and from a translation other than my own.

Yes, but it's a start.. I have no problem with you posting any verses from your version, especially if you feel they show something different the one I am using (NAB).

Are we agreed that verse shows Paul and Barnabas ordaining elders (presbyters) in the local churches?

It's not about church history (your Church or anyone else's), it is about what the Bible reveals on the subject.

I have to disagree with you here. If we are to examine what authority in the Church looks like, beginning with scripture is certainly a starting point, but we should also examine how that authority has been lived, passed on, and/or exercised down through the centuries. (The Truth does not change).

That is, there is authority in the church and it is not state authority and it is different from the authority of the scriptures. It is an authority that the scriptures speak of but which is seldom addressed. It is also a subject that answer the question of if there is any other authority than the scriptures in the life of the believer. Of course then we must begin with God as our authority, and Jesus Christ as our authority.

Absolutely agreed! Apart from GOD, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is no authority; especially so in the Church.

Peace!
PJ

 

[Jacob]

Hello Untell,

Are we agreed then that the Church is, and has always been ONE?

Just not the Catholic Church, but that is what you are implying so no. The church itself is singular, made up of all believers in Jesus as the Christ... that is, all those who have been born again and saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus in His death who died for us for the forgiveness of our sins.

Yes, but it's a start.. I have no problem with you posting any verses from your version, especially if you feel they show something different the one I am using (NAB).

Are we agreed that verse shows Paul and Barnabas ordaining elders (presbyters) in the local churches?

I remember from the verse I quoted that elders could be appointed or in another translation ordained. I'm not too big on supporting a requirement of ordination based on something scholastic. Our learning should still come from God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible.

I have to disagree with you here. If we are to examine what authority in the Church looks like, beginning with scripture is certainly a starting point, but we should also examine how that authority has been lived, passed on, and/or exercised down through the centuries. (The Truth does not change).

The Bible doesn't change, but traditions have. And if the truth in the Bible does not change, there is no reason to have a "but" here. The Bible does speak of traditions, but not Catholic ones.

Absolutely agreed! Apart from GOD, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is no authority; especially so in the Church.

Peace!
PJ

 

[PhilipJames]

Titus 1:5 NASB - For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,

yes, this is certainly one of the verses we need to look at (and I will come back to it).

Now Titus and Timothy are both overseers in the Church. This is not explicitly stated anywhere but you can see it by the charges Paul gives to them, Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete.

In fact Paul commends the Corinthians for showing proper respect of Titus' authority here: 2Cor 7:15

Further I would suggest that Paul, in fact, ordained Titus himself as he calls him 'my true child in the faith' in Titus 1:4

There is no record of how that was done, however there is a record of Timothy's ordination: 2Tim 1:6 and 1Tim 4:14.

We see here the ordination given through the 'laying on of hands' just as was the ordination of the deacons in Acts 6:6

This is the same laying on of hands referred to in Heb 6:2

Further Paul charges Timothy so: And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim: 2:2)

but also warns him: Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure. (1Tim 5:22)

Now returning to Titus 1:5 we see that Titus is left as overseer (bishop) in Crete with the express purpose of ordaining elders in the churches there.

So we see from these scriptures the method of ordaining elders in the Church. It is though the power of the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, by those with the authority to make such an ordination (the elders who come before them).

Do you agree? If not, why not? Do you see any other method of ordaining elders in the Church expressed in scripture?

Peace
PJ

 

[Jacob]

yes, this is certainly one of the verses we need to look at (and I will come back to it).

Now Titus and Timothy are both overseers in the Church. This is not explicitly stated anywhere but you can see it by the charges Paul gives to them, Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete.

In fact Paul commends the Corinthians for showing proper respect of Titus' authority here: 2Cor 7:15

Further I would suggest that Paul, in fact, ordained Titus himself as he calls him 'my true child in the faith' in Titus 1:4

There is no record of how that was done, however there is a record of Timothy's ordination: 2Tim 1:6 and 1Tim 4:14.

We see here the ordination given through the 'laying on of hands' just as was the ordination of the deacons in Acts 6:6

This is the same laying on of hands referred to in Heb 6:2

Further Paul charges Timothy so: And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim: 2:2)

but also warns him: Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure. (1Tim 5:22)

Now returning to Titus 1:5 we see that Titus is left as overseer (bishop) in Crete with the express purpose of ordaining elders in the churches there.

So we see from these scriptures the method of ordaining elders in the Church. It is though the power of the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, by those with the authority to make such an ordination (the elders who come before them).

Do you agree? If not, why not? Do you see any other method of ordaining elders in the Church expressed in scripture?

Peace
PJ

There is much here to contemplate. When I go through some of the scriptures I don't see the word ordained in the translation provided.

Let's address Timothy and then elders. With Timothy it is said he had a gift through the laying on of hands. But you mentioned this was ordination, which from the verses provided I do not see.

As for elders... there are elders, overseers, shepherds, pastors, deacons, etc..., there are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. I'm commenting on those who are in the church, without mentioning all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, namely what we call Spiritual gifts. But obviously those who are above reproach and hold to these roles have the gift of the Holy Spirit as I believe all those who are believers in God and have faith in God only in His Son Jesus the Christ.

Ephesians 4:11 NASB - And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,