Cruciform
New member
Your claim that Jesus Christ teaches doctrinal error is noted (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15).
ECT What is your definition of a Christian? What is scriptures definition?
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IMJerusha
New member
I certainly do not doubt that Yeshua used Peter to build His Church. What I doubt is what man has done to that Church and I don't see that the Catholic church is 100% correct in its interpretations and practices any more than the Protestant denominations are. So, it's not my claim that Yeshua teaches doctrinal error, but good twist. The fact that you did twist proves my point. No one should have to twist the truth to defend their doctrine.
Cruciform
New member
No "twist" whatsoever. Jesus himself stated that to listen to his Church (apostles and bishops ~ Ac. 16:4) is to listen to Him, and to reject his Church is to reject Him (Lk. 10:16). Jesus stated that to persecute his Church is to persecute Jesus Himself (Ac. 9:5). Jesus himself declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail against His one historic Church (Mt. 16:18). And Jesus' chosen apostles taught that Christ's one historic Church--and not "Scripture alone"---that is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).
If your claim is true, then Jesus lied (or was mistaken) in both Mt. 16:18 and Lk. 10:16, and Ac. 9:5, and St. Paul taught falsehood in 1 Tim. 3:15. Thus, my prior statements stand exactly as posted.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
I said
Jesus' church doesn't have a denominational title. Jesus' church is hidden from the world. So the Catholic church cant be it.
THE TRUE CHURCH IS HIDDEN
Rev 12:1-17
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John 16:1-4
1 "These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.
2 "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.
3 "And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.
4 "But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
1 Tim 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
2 Tim 4:3-5
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
Heb 6:9-12
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Rev 3:4
4 "You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 14:4-5
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev 19:7-9
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
Luke 8:10
10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'
Rev 10:7
7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
(NKJ)
XXX The True church is hidden. The true church is not these denominational temples. The true church is defined by this verse. The church is not a building, it is a group of people talking about Christ. The true church that Jesus started is within all born again Christians. The true churches doctrine is the new testament.
Matt 18:20
20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
(NKJ)
xxxAnd the true members dont have room in their minds for denominations or man made church doctrines.
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
IMJerusha
New member
Yeshua's Church is all who believe in Him, not just elders and deacons, etc. Yeshua's Church encompasses so much more than the Catholic church. Yeshua stated that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church....that being all those who believe in Him and do God's Will. Your posts may stand but they are still twisted truth. Don't add to Scripture, Cruciform. We can not defend the faith that way nor does God need that from us.
Cruciform
New member
And yet the Bible indicates that Christ's one historic Church is guided and taught by the apostles/bishops (Magisterium ~ Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15) in Jesus' own name and by his very authority (see biblical references in previous post).
Actually, it doesn't. The Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. The man-made non-Catholic sects that have sprung up over the past few centuries are decidedly not that one historic Church. Jesus himself stated that he would build his Church (singular), not "churchES."
Yes, that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. upon the "Rock" of Peter and his successors, and led by the apostles and bishops for two millennia now.
A claim you have yet to actually demonstrate. (Sorry, but the assumptions and opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect don't count.)
Go ahead and prove exactly where I've supposedly "added to Scripture."
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
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Cruciform;4216963 The Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. Go ahead and [B said:
I said
Oh let me show you where you added to scripture. That is NOT A FACT. That is your assumption Because that is no where in scripture.
You said
The Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.
Where does the bible say that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus in 33 AD.
I said
Oh let me answer that one to. A real Christian is NOT to even think beyond what is written. And they are not to add one thing to the scriptures or take one thing away from the scriptures. You add catholic. And that is not scripture.
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
IMJerusha
New member
You're going to the Catholic church for your proof text? That's a conflict of interest. Of course the Catholic church is going to claim that and support it with their own teaching but nowhere in Scripture is that taught. This is my primary issue with the Catholic church, not with Catholics being Christian as I know they full well are. The church makes claims that aren't founded in Scripture but are interpretations of Scripture. And the crazy thing is that there are people such as yourself in the Catholic church that espouse these interpretations while other Catholics do not. A dear friend of my Dad's and later my friend as well, a Catholic priest, never issued the statements you issue. Life long Catholic friends of my family and I have never moved to get us into the Catholic church but rather stood by our sides through all that life brought our way, prayed with us, worshiped and celebrated with us. Seriously, I believe these are Catholics who are in a love affair with Yeshua as opposed to their interpretations realizing that no man has the right or authority to limit God's reach.
Cruciform
New member
Nonsense. It's no more a "conflict" than is the fact that you go to your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect for your texts.
Of course your chosen man-made non-Catholic sect is going to make its claims and support them with its own teaching, but nowhere in Scripture is that taught.
In any case, I've already provided a lengthy list of biblical texts which more than substantiate the claims of Christ's one historic Catholic Church.
- First, your comment relies completely upon the 16th-century Protestant notion of sola scriptura ("scripture alone"), a doctrine that is itself nowhere taught---or even hinted at---in Scripture, and so which merely refutes itself.
- Second, every proof-text you post is merely an interpretation of Scripture that you have derived from your chosen man-made non-Catholic sect, so the second part of your statement may be applied just as well to you yourself.
Irrelevant. The Church's teachings are established and authoritative, whether or not individual Catholics properly comprehend them or adequately follow them.
They're all plainly stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Livelystone
New member
I pulled this from the rest of your post because these words resonated with me in a manner that caused me to add to them.
Hopefully you will agree with the following words that have to do with our "working out our salvation with fear and trembling".......
The reason we are forgiven of the sins we have asked to be forgiven of, is so sin in us does not stop the faith of Jesus Christ from being formed in us!!!
Our faith consist of only what we believe that is the truth , and the only way we can know the truth about Him, His resurrection, and His hope for us, is, because we have received this truth from Him who has given it to us!
On the other hand, unforgiven sin in the life of a Christian causes a separation between Him who is life, versus those who have fallen from life unto death because they have sins that remain unforgiven......... I hope all will dwell on this until it resonates.
We were not forgiven of our past just to have a free "get out of jail card" for the rest of our lives, but so we not be impeded from the salvation being offered to us, because of any future unrepented sins that have happened since we first came to the one who will forgive us of our sin should we repent from sin that means to turn away from them, and "sin no more".
For those who have ears that hear, I thank God who gave you these ears that have allowed you to hear what the Spirit of God has to say to those who love and desire to obey Him
Cross Reference
New member
Deception, as sin can be, is as leprosy. If you feel no pain, it is too late.
"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; . . . . . let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they [soon] shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they [soon] shall be as wool" Isaiah 1:16,18 (KJV)
[emphasis mine]
"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; . . . . . let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they [soon] shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they [soon] shall be as wool" Isaiah 1:16,18 (KJV)
[emphasis mine]
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Well, that settles that. Cruciform needs to take heed of that now.
Cross Reference
New member
Abraham founded nothing. Christ Jesus founded His Church and by the same type of faith Abraham experienced/expressed from himself towards God, is how it is entered into.
I said
He won't. You see he had been programmed that interpretation is the Word of God. So the actual Word of God has no affect on him.
There are two ways of looking at scripture. You can see it the way it is written. Or you can see the interpretation of what is written. In both concepts they recipient will have the same response. That is why there are so many arguments. That is why one should know who they are talking to. Catholics have washed away the truth with their interpretations.. That is why they don't go by the rules of believing. Catholics are brain washed by traditions.
oatmeal
Well-known member
I know what you are saying.