What will pre-tribber rapture believers do.
- Thread starter Lazy afternoon
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beameup
New member
Predestination
Free-will
Is it too much of a "stretch" to consider BOTH true?
Only those who are entrenched in Space-Time cannot think "outside the box".
beameup
New member
The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of SIN
and to reveal to us the HOLINESS of God
and the FACT the Jesus Christ DIED for our SIN
What YOU do in response to that being REVEALED to you, determines your eternal destination.
1) exerting your ego and denying you are totally SINFUL will bring condemnation upon you
2) "dying" to your ego and recognizing you are totally SINFUL before God, and worthy of DEATH, will bring forgiveness and God's love
beameup
New member
If that's the case, then God cannot judge you according to your decision...
that decision that was made precisely the moment when the Holy Spirit convicted
you of sin and then offered you the only available option to deal with it.
That "doctrine" would force God to carry out annihilation on all unbelievers, in the end.
PS: annihilation is the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses
oatmeal
Well-known member
it may be, but according to scriptures it is a future reality that as far as God's point of view is concerned is a foregone conclusion to this age of grace.
Please read my first post in this thread, which is post 7
oatmeal
Well-known member
Could you supply the scriptures that you think support that statement?
Since rapture does not appear in the Bible, but Paul saying the departure does, explain what he means. The man of sin is not revealed until the departure of the church.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Paul wrote that the gathering of the saints would occur at the coming of the Lord, which would not occur until after the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
LA
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Seems self explanatory really, whether it be buying and selling in a religious or money sense.
I think both.
oatmeal
Well-known member
What Paul wrote still needs to be rightly divided and the KJV is not much help in doing so.
For they confused the events described in the gospels and in the book of Revelation... with the events of I Thessalonians 1:13-18
the day of Christ is not the same event as our gathering together unto him.
The Revelation time period is the day of Christ, the gathering together is referring to I Thes 4:13-18
to suggest otherwise ignores the two verses I pointed out earlier that makes is clear that we are saved from the wrath to come.
If we have to endure the wrath, then what did we get saved from?
Incorrect. Imagine my shock.
lain:Paul said the saints would depart before the revealing.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come until the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
The saints, not you, are delivered from the great tribulation, which Paul calls the wrath to come.
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
We do not go through tribulation, there is a departure of the church first, we are saved from that wrath.
oatmeal
Well-known member
I am sure it is.
It is also interesting to see scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians, philosophers,etc do the same thing
The time of the revealing of the son of perdition is not the wrath of God. Read Rev.ch 12.
The revealing of the son of perdition is not in the day of Christ for then he is destroyed by Christs appearing to deliver His own from the power of the son of perdition.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
LA
Incorrect. Imagine my shock.
Paul said the saints would depart before the revealing.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come until the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
The saints, not you, are delivered from the great tribulation, which Paul calls the wrath to come.
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
We do not go through tribulation, there is a departure of the church first, we are saved from that wrath.
While there is wrath upon the disobedient living of the church before Christ returns to raise the saints (trumpets), it is not the wrath of the vials which is poured out on the living beast worshippers after Christ returns, but is the wrath of God in casting people into everlasting fire in Rev.ch 20.
The word is not departure, but is falling away.
The sons of God who fell away before the flood were in power persecuting the righteous before the flood.
The Pharaoh who knew not Joseph was in power, persecuting Israel before they departed Egypt.
We could give many examples of the wicked persecuting the righteous, and none escaped their tribulations, and only after they were faithful to God in all their tribulations were they to be delivered.
The Bible is full of the same.
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It is impossible that the man of sin can be exalted in the day of Christ.
Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isa 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
Isa 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
Isa 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
Isa 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
LA
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ah, but there is a difference. scientists, doctors etc are not dealing with a text allegedly provided by an all-knowing loving deity, one would think that book would be a little more straight forward and easy for all to understand.
Instead you get different basic interpretations and threads like this one.
oatmeal
Well-known member
There are many events that will take place in the future and they will not all occur at the same time.
However, the gathering together is an event that involves the believers in this age of grace, we have been removed from the earthly events, including the the wrath, that occur in the book of Revelation and are referred to in I Cor 15 the gospels and Thess.
We will be participants in those events as "might messengers" but not the recipients of the wrath or any of the other events listed.
Like I asked, what did Jesus save us from if we still have to deal with the wrath, and for that matter, all the rest of the events that lead up to it?
We have been saved, not ignored.
I'm curious. Just was is, in your view, the mark of the beast?
Please don't do something lazy like quoting Revelation. I've read the verses. I'm asking you whether you'd know the mark of the beast if you saw it and if so, how? What is it, exactly? What does it look like?
Do you think, no - that the wrong word, do you believe that the mark of the beast is something people will choose to accept consciously, understanding that accepting it is rejecting God?
Do you believe that people choose - anything?
Resting in Him,
Clete