Why are Christians embracing Evolution?

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, He died. And He was raised from the dead. But you’re suggesting He was separated from God the Father, right?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” - Matthew 27:46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew27:46&version=NKJV

Jesus said it.

Strong's g4518 - Lexical: σαβαχθανί - Transliteration: sabachthani - Part of Speech: Aramaic Transliterated Word (Indeclinable); Hebrew - Phonetic Spelling: sab-akh-than-ee' - Definition: thou hast forsaken me. - Origin: Of Chaldee or (shbaq with pronominal suffix); thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. Shebakthani), a cry of distress. - Usage: sabachthani. - Translated as (count): sabachthani (2).

Strong's g1459 - Lexical: ἐγκαταλείπω - Transliteration: egkataleipó - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: eng-kat-al-i'-po - Definition: to leave behind, (in a good sense) let remain over or (in a bad sense) desert. - Origin: From en and kataleipo; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert. - Usage: forsake, leave. - Translated as (count): have you forsaken (2), being forsaken (1), deserted (1), forsaking (1), had left (1), has deserted (1), was He abandoned (1), will I forsake (1), You will abandon (1).

Are you saying He’s not God?

NO!

How could the one God be separated from Himself?

Because Jesus is the Son. The Father is the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and all Three are God.

Three Persons, one Godhead.

Jesus is a special case for both views, so it is hardly the right one to help understand what happens to those who aren’t God.

Jesus was in every way a man. How does that make him not the right one?

Been to any funerals lately?

I can answer this for both myself and for Clete, as we both went to Bob's memorial service (though, somehow missed each other! Whodathunk!).

How many of them talk about how the deceased is actually dead and their hope is in resurrection?

The emphasis was on Bob having departed his physical body, and his spiritual body now being in heaven.

If that's not separation, I don't know what is.

Isn’t it all about how they are in a much better place, and are meeting Jesus face to face?

... separated from their physical bodies, yes. Which is exactly what Clete said above.

Yet Paul tells us to comfort those that have lost loved ones by reminding them of the resurrection to come.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Indeed he does. THEIR BODY will be resurrected.

 

[ok doser]

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” - Matthew 27:46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew27:46&version=NKJV

Jesus said it.

Strong's g4518 - Lexical: σαβαχθανί - Transliteration: sabachthani - Part of Speech: Aramaic Transliterated Word (Indeclinable); Hebrew - Phonetic Spelling: sab-akh-than-ee' - Definition: thou hast forsaken me. - Origin: Of Chaldee or (shbaq with pronominal suffix); thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. Shebakthani), a cry of distress. - Usage: sabachthani. - Translated as (count): sabachthani (2).

Strong's g1459 - Lexical: ἐγκαταλείπω - Transliteration: egkataleipó - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: eng-kat-al-i'-po - Definition: to leave behind, (in a good sense) let remain over or (in a bad sense) desert. - Origin: From en and kataleipo; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert. - Usage: forsake, leave. - Translated as (count): have you forsaken (2), being forsaken (1), deserted (1), forsaking (1), had left (1), has deserted (1), was He abandoned (1), will I forsake (1), You will abandon (1).

Interesting

I've never considered that

 

[Derf]

Jesus was in every way a man. How does that make him not the right one?

He existed before His body existed. He’s not just human, but also God. In those ways He’s not a man. Man returns to dust. I don’t know what Jesus returned to. It’s possible that as a man, He ceased to exist, but because He existed without the man part, I don’t know what that would look like for Him. So his death is not the best example. Even still, if He died completely, no function remaining whatsoever, those scriptures are not violated. He knew already that He would rise from the dead, so He had the power (“authority” in some translations”), to take up His life again. It doesn’t say anything about His existence or activities while He was dead.

I can answer this for both myself and for Clete, as we both went to Bob's memorial service (though, somehow missed each other! Whodathunk!).

Funny, in a somber sort of way. I’m glad you both went.

The emphasis was on Bob having departed his physical body, and his spiritual body now being in heaven.

If that's not separation, I don't know what is.

That’s my point. It is separation, but it’s not death. Just like divorce is separation, but it’s not death. Most people don’t have a funeral when they get divorced, although there’s definitely some forsaking going on.

Paul seemed to think believers would actually be “dead”, not alive in another form.

Why do you think it’s necessary to comfort people with such words, when Paul said to use the other words? Is it because we don’t see our hope being in the resurrection, but in not actually dying?

Indeed he does. THEIR BODY will be resurrected.

Only if you add to scripture. The passage says nothing about bodies, but only “them which are asleep”, also called “the dead” in the same chapter. “Them”, not “their bodies”.

I appreciate your and @clete’s replies, and if we need to take this to another thread, we can.

 

[Leatherneck]

He existed before His body existed. He’s not just human, but also God. In those ways He’s not a man. Man returns to dust. I don’t know what Jesus returned to. It’s possible that as a man, He ceased to exist, but because He existed without the man part, I don’t know what that would look like for Him. So his death is not the best example. Even still, if He died completely, no function remaining whatsoever, those scriptures are not violated. He knew already that He would rise from the dead, so He had the power (“authority” in some translations”), to take up His life again. It doesn’t say anything about His existence or activities while He was dead.

Funny, in a somber sort of way. I’m glad you both went.
That’s my point. It is separation, but it’s not death. Just like divorce is separation, but it’s not death. Most people don’t have a funeral when they get divorced, although there’s definitely some forsaking going on.

Paul seemed to think believers would actually be “dead”, not alive in another form.

Why do you think it’s necessary to comfort people with such words, when Paul said to use the other words? Is it because we don’t see our hope being in the resurrection, but in not actually dying?


Only if you add to scripture. The passage says nothing about bodies, but only “them which are asleep”, also called “the dead” in the same chapter. “Them”, not “their bodies”.

I appreciate your and @clete’s replies, and if we need to take this to another thread, we can.

2Co 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[JudgeRightly]

He existed before His body existed.

Agreed.

He’s not just human, but also God.

Agreed.

In those ways He’s not a man.

His "man" nature was entirely that of a man.

Man returns to dust.

And God protected His physical body from corruption. Had He not, that body would have decayed just like any other human body.

I don’t know what Jesus returned to.

The Bible tells us that he returned to a glorified, yet still physical, body.

Will the Resurrection of the Body Be a Physical Resurrection from the Dead?

Yes, our bodies will be raised not spiritually or ethereally but physically and materially. Our souls will be reunited with our transformed physical bodies, brought back to life from the dead. Scripture teaches this in many ways. First, simply to…

www.desiringgod.org

It’s possible that as a man, He ceased to exist,

So Jesus' "human" nature ceased to exist? How many times did Jesus "become" a man? Once? Twice? Do you think that Jesus is no longer a man, where the Bible says that Jesus became a man and will be a man forever more?

Because that's heresy, Derf!

I'm not saying you're as bad as James White, but I want you to realize the seriousness of what it is you're saying, and where it leads.

but because He existed without the man part,

Chapter verse.

Jesus died, decended into Hell, and returned to his human body on the third day, and forty days later, leading captivity captive, ascended into heaven as both God and Man.

Where does ANY of that imply that Jesus ceased having a human nature?

I don’t know what that would look like for Him.

And that's the main issue your position has. it CANNOT address this issue, because it doesn't have a way to address it.

Mine does not have that issue, because it does not assert that Jesus ceased being human at ANY POINT, but rather that Jesus became a man once as a baby in a manger and still to this very day and forever more is and will forever be both God and man.

So his death is not the best example. Even still, if He died completely, no function remaining whatsoever,

He didn't "die completely, no function remaining whatsoever."

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”(Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) - Ephesians 4:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:7-10&version=NKJV

He descended into Hell ("the lower parts of the earth") to set those who were awaiting justification, those in Abraham's Bosom, free. And then, leading captivity captive, he ascended into heaven.

And he descended into hell, you guessed it, SEPARATED from His physical body, which remained in the tomb until the third day.

those scriptures are not violated.

Supra.

He knew already that He would rise from the dead, so He had the power (“authority” in some translations”), to take up His life again. It doesn’t say anything about His existence or activities while He was dead.

Supra.

Funny, in a somber sort of way. I’m glad you both went.

That’s my point. It is separation, but it’s not death. Just like divorce is separation, but it’s not death.

Except that it is a death. It's not a physical death, where a person is separated from his body, nor is it a spiritual death, where a person is separated from God, but it IS a LEGAL death. It's the death of a marriage. No? Man is legally separated from his wife, therefore their marriage is well and truly dead at that point.

Most people don’t have a funeral when they get divorced, although there’s definitely some forsaking going on.

Supra.

Paul seemed to think believers would actually be “dead”, not alive in another form.

Then why did he say the following?

For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. - Philippians 1:19-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians1:19-26&version=NKJV

Maybe it's confirmation bias, but you have your work cut out for you explaining why Paul would use that sort of wording if death (here, of course, the physical kind) meant anything other than separation, and that of one's body and soul/spirit.

Note that I highlighted where Paul is talking about dying being a gain for him. What is there to gain if death means "soul-sleep" or cessation of existence, even if Paul wakes up in the future "resurrected"? THERE IS NONE! There is no net gain for him to do so, and he would rather spend his time remaining in the flesh, because his converts need him to teach them, and he knows it.

On the other hand, if death is defined as separation, then the issue is resolved! There's a gain for him to go to heaven, because then he can IMMEDIATELY meet his God, Lord, and Savior, not after he's resurrected, but the moment he dies, because at that moment, his soul/spirit is separated from his body, and ascends to heaven, which is far better!

Why do you think it’s necessary to comfort people with such words, when Paul said to use the other words? Is it because we don’t see our hope being in the resurrection, but in not actually dying?

Because their resurrection is where we will see them again.

That event is called the rapture, and it's literally described in the very passage you quoted above.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Thessalonians4:13-18&version=NKJV

Only if you add to scripture.

No. Supra, the link.

What I said comes from scripture.

The passage says nothing about bodies,

Because that's not the only verse on the topic, Derf!

but only “them which are asleep”, also called “the dead” in the same chapter.

"Asleep" is just a euphemism (and a rather apt one) for "dead," because a dead person looks like they're just asleep.

Have YOU ever been to a funeral, or ever examined a person's dead body up close? I have. A few times, actually. All of them (one was some dead guy who had donated his body to science to study, and was laying on a table, and the other two were my grandpa and grandma (open casket funerals)) looked like they could could wake up at any moment.

“Them”, not “their bodies”

Supra.

I appreciate your and @clete’s replies, and if we need to take this to another thread, we can.

Yeah, lets move this to another thread. You can start it with a response to this post.

 

[Clete]

That’s a bit exclusive, since there are numbers of Christians that don’t believe it.

That's fine by me!

There is no such thing as a real Christian who denies the death of Jesus Christ nor is there any such thing as a real Christian who believes that Jesus ever ceased to exist.

Also, there are Christians who believe all sorts of wacky things because they are taught to believe them and don't care whether they make any sense or whether they contradict each other or whether they can even be biblical defended, much less established so I really don't care AT ALL about how many Christian believe it.

On the contrary, it’s exactly as though we came up with the definition, just as you described. The definition doesn’t apply to any other thing, and the Bible doesn’t provide that definition.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Derf.

And besides that, "the way I described" is biblical! I didn't write the bible, Derf! I just read it and base what I believe on what it clearly teaches. There is no preconceived notions that I are brought to the bible that require straining the definition of "death" in a manner that conforms it to those a-priori beliefs. The concept of death being a separation is itself a purely biblical construct as I have already shown and can establish further.

Not only did Jesus cry out loud when He and the Father were separated while He was still on the cross but Jesus told one of the criminals being executed along with Him that they would be together that day in paradise (Luke 23:43). Then, three days later, He took up His life again (John 10:17) and then He told Mary not to cling to Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). This is one of the ways we can know for a fact that "Paradise" was not Heaven but was rather the place of the righteous dead, also known as "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22). None of which is possible if He ceased to exist or even lost consciousness, for that matter.

Yes, He died. And He was raised from the dead. But you’re suggesting He was separated from God the Father, right?

I am not "suggesting" it. That is what the bible teaches. You act like I'm making this stuff up as I go.

Are you saying He’s not God? How could the one God be separated from Himself?

Because Jesus is not the Father nor is He the Holy Spirit. There are not three Gods, there is one triune God. In some sense they are quite separate. In another sense they are one. While some theologians teach the doctrine of the Trinity in a manner that is self-contradictory, the bible itself does not. There are details we are not taught and so there's plenty of room for confusion but if we simply stick with what the bible itself says there is no contradiction inherent in the idea that the singular God is triune in nature.

Jesus is a special case for both views, so it is hardly the right one to help understand what happens to those who aren’t God.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Jesus was fully human and He died in exactly the same sense in which any other human being has ever died and went to the same place that all the other righteous dead went. The difference is that He was also God who, by the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8), was able to take His life back up again, reuniting Himself both with His physical body and with the Father.

Been to any funerals lately? How many of them talk about how the deceased is actually dead and their hope is in resurrection? Isn’t it all about how they are in a much better place, and are meeting Jesus face to face? Yet Paul tells us to comfort those that have lost loved ones by reminding them of the resurrection to come.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is not relevant for several reasons, one of the most important of which is the fact that the curtain of SEPARATION was split in two when Jesus died. I don't have the time to go into the details of the significance of the symbolism behind the split of that which separated us from God but, for the purposes of this discussion, there is no need to do so. Put simply Jesus death was life to the whole world (Romans 5). Therefore, Paul tells us elsewhere that to be SEPARATE from the body (i.e physically dead) is to be present with the Lord (II Cor. 5-6-8). Thus, no one during the present dispensation is sent to "Abraham's Bosom" precisely because that which separated us from Him has been removed by virtue of Christ's having died in our place.


So, if death isn't a separation then what is it? What do you mean when you say that Jesus died and rose from the dead?

I agree this is tangential to the OP, but is along the same lines as redefining the words a chapter or two earlier in Genesis.

We can always split it off onto its own thread if you want.

Clete

 

[Clete]

And where do those spirits go? Are they alive somewhere waiting for new, glorified bodies? Rather “spirit” in those cases, and in ours, makes more sense as a life force, or “breath”.
Job 27:3 (KJV) All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;
“Breath” is equated with God’s spirit, which is unlikely to just reside in your nostrils, if it’s talking about some component of humans that remains after physical death.

Are you suggesting here that we do not have actual spirits but that what we call our "spirit" is some sort of undefined "life force"?

I'm not saying you ARE suggesting that, by the way. It's a real question. Is that what you mean by what you said here?

 

[Derf]

Agreed.



Agreed.



His "man" nature was entirely that of a man.



And God protected His physical body from corruption. Had He not, that body would have decayed just like any other human body.



The Bible tells us that he returned to a glorified, yet still physical, body.

Will the Resurrection of the Body Be a Physical Resurrection from the Dead?

Yes, our bodies will be raised not spiritually or ethereally but physically and materially. Our souls will be reunited with our transformed physical bodies, brought back to life from the dead. Scripture teaches this in many ways. First, simply to…

www.desiringgod.org

So Jesus' "human" nature ceased to exist? How many times did Jesus "become" a man? Once? Twice? Do you think that Jesus is no longer a man, where the Bible says that Jesus became a man and will be a man forever more?

Because that's heresy, Derf!

I'm not saying you're as bad as James White, but I want you to realize the seriousness of what it is you're saying, and where it leads.



Chapter verse.

Jesus died, decended into Hell, and returned to his human body on the third day, and forty days later, leading captivity captive, ascended into heaven as both God and Man.

Where does ANY of that imply that Jesus ceased having a human nature?



And that's the main issue your position has. it CANNOT address this issue, because it doesn't have a way to address it.

Mine does not have that issue, because it does not assert that Jesus ceased being human at ANY POINT, but rather that Jesus became a man once as a baby in a manger and still to this very day and forever more is and will forever be both God and man.



He didn't "die completely, no function remaining whatsoever."

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”(Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) - Ephesians 4:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:7-10&version=NKJV

He descended into Hell ("the lower parts of the earth") to set those who were awaiting justification, those in Abraham's Bosom, free. And then, leading captivity captive, he ascended into heaven.

And he descended into hell, you guessed it, SEPARATED from His physical body, which remained in the tomb until the third day.



Supra.



Supra.



Except that it is a death. It's not a physical death, where a person is separated from his body, nor is it a spiritual death, where a person is separated from God, but it IS a LEGAL death. It's the death of a marriage. No? Man is legally separated from his wife, therefore their marriage is well and truly dead at that point.



Supra.



Then why did he say the following?

For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. - Philippians 1:19-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians1:19-26&version=NKJV

Maybe it's confirmation bias, but you have your work cut out for you explaining why Paul would use that sort of wording if death (here, of course, the physical kind) meant anything other than separation, and that of one's body and soul/spirit.

Note that I highlighted where Paul is talking about dying being a gain for him. What is there to gain if death means "soul-sleep" or cessation of existence, even if Paul wakes up in the future "resurrected"? THERE IS NONE! There is no net gain for him to do so, and he would rather spend his time remaining in the flesh, because his converts need him to teach them, and he knows it.

On the other hand, if death is defined as separation, then the issue is resolved! There's a gain for him to go to heaven, because then he can IMMEDIATELY meet his God, Lord, and Savior, not after he's resurrected, but the moment he dies, because at that moment, his soul/spirit is separated from his body, and ascends to heaven, which is far better!



Because their resurrection is where we will see them again.

That event is called the rapture, and it's literally described in the very passage you quoted above.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Thessalonians4:13-18&version=NKJV



No. Supra, the link.

What I said comes from scripture.



Because that's not the only verse on the topic, Derf!



"Asleep" is just a euphemism (and a rather apt one) for "dead," because a dead person looks like they're just asleep.

Have YOU ever been to a funeral, or ever examined a person's dead body up close? I have. A few times, actually. All of them (one was some dead guy who had donated his body to science to study, and was laying on a table, and the other two were my grandpa and grandma (open casket funerals)) looked like they could could wake up at any moment.



Supra.



Yeah, lets move this to another thread. You can start it with a response to this post.

I'll start a thread, but not tonight. I'll try to get it done and answer your and @Clete's posts in it.

 

[DLH]

In my opinion the primary reason is group think, appeal to authority and ignorance. They don't want to look stupid. Ultimately they are Christian only in name for social, cultural and traditional reasons. Their true god isn't the grand creator Jehovah God. Anaximander, Anaxagoras, Empedocles and Aristotle were ancient Greek philosophers who promoted the failed metaphysical experiment we know as theoretical evolution, and it isn't the first time Greek philosophy embedded itself in Judeo-Christian theology.

 

[DLH]

Yes, the earth is old... thousands of years old!

It is my understanding that nowhere in the Bible can the age of the heavens (universe) or Earth be determined.

 

[Leatherneck]

It is my understanding that nowhere in the Bible can the age of the heavens (universe) or Earth be determined.

Sun and moon created by God for light on earth. All creation happened in 6 days according to scripture.

Gen 1:16 - And God made two greatlights; the greater light to rule the day,and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Tools

Gen 1:17 - And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give lightupon the earth,
Tools

Gen 1:18 - And to rule over the dayand over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God sawthat it was good.
Tools

Gen 1:19 - And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. www.blueletterbible.com
The universe is the same age as the earth according to scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

It is my understanding that nowhere in the Bible can the age of the heavens (universe) or Earth be determined.

I never said that it did.

 

[Right Divider]

In my opinion the primary reason is group think, appeal to authority and ignorance.

This is exactly why many believe the nonsense that the age of the earth has been determined to be billions of years old by "scientific analysis".

 

[DLH]

Sun and moon created by God for light on earth. All creation happened in 6 days according to scripture.

Gen 1:16 - And God made two greatlights; the greater light to rule the day,and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Tools

Gen 1:17 - And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give lightupon the earth,
Tools

Gen 1:18 - And to rule over the dayand over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God sawthat it was good.
Tools

Gen 1:19 - And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. www.blueletterbible.com
The universe is the same age as the earth according to scripture.

There are several problems there. First, the ancient Hebrew verb had two states; the perfect indicating completed action and the imperfect which indicated continuous or incomplete action. At Genesis 1:1 the word bara, translated as created, is in the perfect state, which means that at this point the creation of the heavens and the Earth were completed. Later, as in verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, translated as made, is used, which is in the imperfect state, indicating continuous action. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

The sun and moon as part of the heavens were complete, at this point light had not penetrated to the surface of the Earth. Job 38:4, 9 refers to a "swaddling band" around the Earth in the early stages of creation. Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth.

At Genesis 1:3 the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is in the imperfect state indicating progressive action. This first chapter of Genesis has more than 40 cases of the imperfect state. The creative "days" were a gradual process of making Earth habitable. The light was a diffused light which gradually grew in intensity. Some translations more clearly indicate the progressive action.

The Hebrew word for light, ohr, is used. This distinguishes the light from the source of the light. Later, on the fourth "day" the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying that the source of the light only becomes visible then through the swaddling band.

At Genesis 1:4 light and darkness is divided between the eastern and western hemispheres as the Earth rotates on its axis.

At Genesis 1:5 the Hebrew word yohm - translated day - indicates the daylight hours, but the term will be applied in the following verses to indicate various lengths of time, including all six days as one day. We use the term "day" in the same way, like this: In those days I worked the day shift 5 days a week. The Hebrew word is used to describe any period of time from a few hours to thousands of years. (Zechariah 14:8; Proverbs 25:13; Psalm 90:4; Isaiah 49:8; Matthew 10:15) Judgement day isn't a literal 24 hours. My grandfather's day doesn't mean he only lived for 24 hours. God's day of rest, the seventh day, was mentioned by David as continuing thousands of years later, and thousands of years after that Paul said the same. The seventh day continues to this day. (Genesis 2:1-3; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Psalm 95:11; Hebrews 4:1-10)

The terms evening and morning are metaphoric. At this point there are no witnesses on Earth to a literal night and day, but there are witnesses in heaven. (Job 38:4, 7) The evening symbolizes the period of time in which the events unfolding were indiscernible to the angels in heaven. The morning symbolizes the period in which the angels could distinguish what had been accomplished. (Proverbs 4:18)

The light at Genesis 1:14 is different from that in verse 3. In verse 3 the Hebrew word ohr is used, meaning the light from the source. Light in a general sense, whereas the light in verse 14 the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying the source of the light is now visible. See Genesis 1:3

The sun, moon and stars are set as a sign of the seasons, days and years. A most accurate timepiece. The use of the term “sign” is often mistaken as a reference to astrology, which is incorrect.

Genesis 1:16 - The Hebrew waiyaas (proceeded to make), from asah, in verse 16 is different than bara (create) in verses 1, 21 and 27. Asah is the imperfect state indicating progressive action. The luminaries as part of the heavens had already been completed in verse 1, but now they were visible on Earth and prepared for their intended use. Asah can mean make, or appoint (Deuteronomy 15:1), establish (2 Samuel 7:11), form (Jeremiah 18:4), or prepare (Genesis 21:8). Also see Genesis 1:1

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn’t say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)

 

[DLH]

I never said that it did.

I never said that you said it did.

 

[DLH]

This is exactly why many believe the nonsense that the age of the earth has been determined to be billions of years old by "scientific analysis".

Well, if the Bible didn't say it and you don't buy into the "scientific analysis" how is it that you determine the earth not to be billions of years old? You weren't there. I've never put much value in science. Even before I became a believer I thought the theory of Evolution was nonsense, but, well, how long does it take for light to get here from a star?

 

[Right Divider]

Well, if the Bible didn't say it and you don't buy into the "scientific analysis" how is it that you determine the earth not to be billions of years old?

I don't know the precise age and neither does anyone else.
But we can use the history recorded in the Bible to determine its approximate age of thousands of years.

You weren't there.

Indeed, no human alive today was there.

I've never put much value in science.

That's too bad, because real science has great value.

Even before I became a believer I thought the theory of Evolution was nonsense, but, well, how long does it take for light to get here from a star?

It depends on many things, like what it means when God said that He stretched out the heavens.
The "big bang" theory has so many problems that nobody should put much stock in it.

 

[DLH]

I don't know the precise age and neither does anyone else.

Agreed.

But we can use the history records in the Bible to determine its approximate age of thousands of years.

Of humanity. Not of the universe or earth.

That's too bad, because real science has great value.

You are exactly right. I misspoke.

It depends on many things, like what it means when God said that He stretch out the heavens.
The "big bang" theory has so many problems that nobody should put much stock in it.

As John Cleese said, we need to emphasize the fact that science is a method of investigation, not a belief system. It, like theology and Biblical interpretation are the imperfect work of mankind.

 

[Leatherneck]

There are several problems there. First, the ancient Hebrew verb had two states; the perfect indicating completed action and the imperfect which indicated continuous or incomplete action. At Genesis 1:1 the word bara, translated as created, is in the perfect state, which means that at this point the creation of the heavens and the Earth were completed. Later, as in verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, translated as made, is used, which is in the imperfect state, indicating continuous action. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

The sun and moon as part of the heavens were complete, at this point light had not penetrated to the surface of the Earth. Job 38:4, 9 refers to a "swaddling band" around the Earth in the early stages of creation. Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth.

At Genesis 1:3 the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is in the imperfect state indicating progressive action. This first chapter of Genesis has more than 40 cases of the imperfect state. The creative "days" were a gradual process of making Earth habitable. The light was a diffused light which gradually grew in intensity. Some translations more clearly indicate the progressive action.

The Hebrew word for light, ohr, is used. This distinguishes the light from the source of the light. Later, on the fourth "day" the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying that the source of the light only becomes visible then through the swaddling band.

At Genesis 1:4 light and darkness is divided between the eastern and western hemispheres as the Earth rotates on its axis.

At Genesis 1:5 the Hebrew word yohm - translated day - indicates the daylight hours, but the term will be applied in the following verses to indicate various lengths of time, including all six days as one day. We use the term "day" in the same way, like this: In those days I worked the day shift 5 days a week. The Hebrew word is used to describe any period of time from a few hours to thousands of years. (Zechariah 14:8; Proverbs 25:13; Psalm 90:4; Isaiah 49:8; Matthew 10:15) Judgement day isn't a literal 24 hours. My grandfather's day doesn't mean he only lived for 24 hours. God's day of rest, the seventh day, was mentioned by David as continuing thousands of years later, and thousands of years after that Paul said the same. The seventh day continues to this day. (Genesis 2:1-3; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Psalm 95:11; Hebrews 4:1-10)

The terms evening and morning are metaphoric. At this point there are no witnesses on Earth to a literal night and day, but there are witnesses in heaven. (Job 38:4, 7) The evening symbolizes the period of time in which the events unfolding were indiscernible to the angels in heaven. The morning symbolizes the period in which the angels could distinguish what had been accomplished. (Proverbs 4:18)

The light at Genesis 1:14 is different from that in verse 3. In verse 3 the Hebrew word ohr is used, meaning the light from the source. Light in a general sense, whereas the light in verse 14 the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying the source of the light is now visible. See Genesis 1:3

The sun, moon and stars are set as a sign of the seasons, days and years. A most accurate timepiece. The use of the term “sign” is often mistaken as a reference to astrology, which is incorrect.

Genesis 1:16 - The Hebrew waiyaas (proceeded to make), from asah, in verse 16 is different than bara (create) in verses 1, 21 and 27. Asah is the imperfect state indicating progressive action. The luminaries as part of the heavens had already been completed in verse 1, but now they were visible on Earth and prepared for their intended use. Asah can mean make, or appoint (Deuteronomy 15:1), establish (2 Samuel 7:11), form (Jeremiah 18:4), or prepare (Genesis 21:8). Also see Genesis 1:1

The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn’t say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)

Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)

Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)

Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31)

That seems like a 100% departure to the progression of creation. If the creation was destroyed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 that implies that Satan overpowered God and destroyed God’s creation, which is not possible.

 

[DLH]

That seems like a 100% departure to the progression of creation. If the creation was destroyed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 that implies that Satan overpowered God and destroyed God’s creation, which is not possible.

Oh, my, no. I wouldn't suggest any of that. It wasn't destroyed by anyone. It never will be. God created the Earth to last forever and for mankind to live forever in peace upon it. I only suggest there was an indeterminate period of time - quite possibly a great deal of time - between the creation and the completion. [Edit: or rather between the completion and the continuous preparation for habitation.]