why own a gun?

Turbo

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Not all killing is murder. Why do you suppose God commanded that murderers be executed? Do you think that it is sinful for a government to follow God's commandment to punish criminals? Or would you prefer that governments profane God by keeping people alive who should not live?
 

Poly

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bW, what is your response to this part of Turbo's post?

Originally posted by Turbo

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The Name of my Family: Valerius

The Name of my Family: Valerius

An ancestor of mine: Emperor Valerius Liscenious, whose vicious hate for Christianity caused the murder of thousands of martyrs; is the namesake I carry. I do believe in curses being passed to the third and fourth generation of them that hate God; and have broken the curse, but only by The Blood of The Lamb. Not that Emperor Valerius (or his legacy) mean anything to me, other than, "Wow, that's cool," from most who learn of it. I don't believe that men are ever perfect, in this life, nor that they should be worshipped; especially leaders, who everyone seems to feel that it is their duty to find some 'dirt' on. Probably partly due to the way that the commoners used to go on about their rulers being great, or ascribing magical powers to them. We are under the curse that we build for ourselves, when we disobey The Lord, Who told us to pray for leaders, everywhere, so that all men might serve Him in peace. He walked the walk.

Yes, police (and even the military) are ministers of God, on our behalf. God sets up one ruler, takes him down and puts up another. He still runs the whole show, but allows us to stew in pots that we have filled. Thank God that He has given us His Grace, through Jesus, the only way out of this sinking cesspool called earth. That's Who we need to talk about. He lives in our actions. He walks (and talks) in our flesh.

I own a gun, and wouldn't hesitate to use it, were someone to enter my house unwanted, or otherwise threaten my family. I believe that Jesus said that if we didn't own a gun, that we should sell our coat, and buy one. I agree. If more people owned guns and the criminals knew that, there'd be a lot less crime. Many European countries enjoy far less crime than we do, partly because of the gun ownership (required by law) and partly because national service in the military is mandatory for all able-bodied citizens. I guess that when the only 'dissident' population is infirm, the meetings go kinda' slow. They learn how to walk, from those who've been there, and then came back to help them.

My dad fought in WWII. He got his left kneecap torn off by a German artillery shell, near the end of the war. There were Jews, Christians, Catholics, agnostics, Native Americans and who knows, maybe even Satanists and Mormons out there, fighting against a common enemy: tyranny. I thank God for him, and pray daily for his salvation. He's 86 years old, and we're going to look at a retirement home, next week. He can't walk so well anymore. He was a USPS Letter Carrier for 31 years, even though he only had one kneecap. When I was young, I remember how much he was silent, most of the time. I had a rough go of it trying to catch up to him when I followed along, now and then, on his mail route. He walked the walk.

We came to this country to seek our fortunes in 'new territory,' America. We decided that taxation without representation was ridiculous. Now we have more taxes and even less representation. Our elected officials think that the 'special interest' groups speak for all Americans. I think that they just talk, talk, talk; but don't walk the walk. Too many fools walking around doing all the talking. It is the meek, the downtrodden few, who are quiet, most of the time, that you have to watch out for. One day they get their belly-full of someone or something and then, LOOKOUT; they're un-stoppable. My dad is that way. Well maybe not so much any more, but he talks about the walk that he had. I honor my dad. He is my hero. Always will be.
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Poly

bW, what is your response to this part of Turbo's post?

OK

Turbo said "But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords. "

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by brother Willi

am i to resist evil with a gun, or the Word?
Resist evil within your own heart, devising mischief against God-fearing TOL'ers, who only tease you because you're easy prey. Read your Bible, and pray. Those things are important. The rest will fall into place, if you'll trust God.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by brother Willi

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?
Of course, since they weren't even allowed to carry a purse (money) or scrip (notepad). He had instructed them so.
 

Jabez

Friend of Jesus
To me it is clear that the Sword or guns these are mans way,not Gods.Though swords and guns are useful.We are to live beyond men reaching for spirtual ground.In the name of God anything is possable.If a robber comes into my home and i catch him and rebuke him in the name of Jesus i command him to leave,he will leave unharmed.Do you have enough faith to do it?I always dont,for iam not perfect,iam less than perfect,iam nothing!
 

brother Willi

New member
Re: The Name of my Family: Valerius

Re: The Name of my Family: Valerius

Originally posted by Aimiel

An ancestor of mine: Emperor Valerius Liscenious, whose vicious hate for Christianity caused the murder of thousands of martyrs; is the namesake I carry. I do believe in curses being passed to the third and fourth generation of them that hate God; and have broken the curse, but only by The Blood of The Lamb. Not that Emperor Valerius (or his legacy) mean anything to me, other than, "Wow, that's cool," from most who learn of it. I don't believe that men are ever perfect, in this life, nor that they should be worshipped; especially leaders, who everyone seems to feel that it is their duty to find some 'dirt' on. Probably partly due to the way that the commoners used to go on about their rulers being great, or ascribing magical powers to them. We are under the curse that we build for ourselves, when we disobey The Lord, Who told us to pray for leaders, everywhere, so that all men might serve Him in peace. He walked the walk.

Yes, police (and even the military) are ministers of God, on our behalf. God sets up one ruler, takes him down and puts up another. He still runs the whole show, but allows us to stew in pots that we have filled. Thank God that He has given us His Grace, through Jesus, the only way out of this sinking cesspool called earth. That's Who we need to talk about. He lives in our actions. He walks (and talks) in our flesh.

I own a gun, and wouldn't hesitate to use it, were someone to enter my house unwanted, or otherwise threaten my family. I believe that Jesus said that if we didn't own a gun, that we should sell our coat, and buy one. I agree. If more people owned guns and the criminals knew that, there'd be a lot less crime. Many European countries enjoy far less crime than we do, partly because of the gun ownership (required by law) and partly because national service in the military is mandatory for all able-bodied citizens. I guess that when the only 'dissident' population is infirm, the meetings go kinda' slow. They learn how to walk, from those who've been there, and then came back to help them.

My dad fought in WWII. He got his left kneecap torn off by a German artillery shell, near the end of the war. There were Jews, Christians, Catholics, agnostics, Native Americans and who knows, maybe even Satanists and Mormons out there, fighting against a common enemy: tyranny. I thank God for him, and pray daily for his salvation. He's 86 years old, and we're going to look at a retirement home, next week. He can't walk so well anymore. He was a USPS Letter Carrier for 31 years, even though he only had one kneecap. When I was young, I remember how much he was silent, most of the time. I had a rough go of it trying to catch up to him when I followed along, now and then, on his mail route. He walked the walk.

We came to this country to seek our fortunes in 'new territory,' America. We decided that taxation without representation was ridiculous. Now we have more taxes and even less representation. Our elected officials think that the 'special interest' groups speak for all Americans. I think that they just talk, talk, talk; but don't walk the walk. Too many fools walking around doing all the talking. It is the meek, the downtrodden few, who are quiet, most of the time, that you have to watch out for. One day they get their belly-full of someone or something and then, LOOKOUT; they're un-stoppable. My dad is that way. Well maybe not so much any more, but he talks about the walk that he had. I honor my dad. He is my hero. Always will be.
and please understand that i mean no disrespect for any who have been at war,

my dad faught against your dad
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi



"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;"

i see the war we are in as wrong, we invaded 2 other countries.
if i go to war, the govermnent i fight against is evil, but what of the innocent folks there.
dont our bombs kill them?
today war is different from the days of Jesus
you saw your enemy, face to face

bro Willi...

I do not own a gun, and I never will.

However, I ask you once again, do you believe that God institutes authorities to have the power to protect it's citizens?

Can a Christian police officer use a gun to protect and defend people in his community? Yes or no?
 

Poly

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Originally posted by brother Willi

OK

Turbo said "But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords. "

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?
(Don't, Poly!! ....resist...must... resist!)

What does this have to do with anything?

:doh: (couldn't resist)
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Aimiel

Resist evil within your own heart, devising mischief against God-fearing TOL'ers, who only tease you because you're easy prey. Read your Bible, and pray. Those things are important. The rest will fall into place, if you'll trust God.
i do trust in God.
i understand i chew my own food.
but trusting means trusting.
it does not mean play with fire and trust we wont get burnt.

how much do we trust, if we do not give our lives?
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by brother Willi

when is killing not murder?
We've already given you some examples:
  • A government official executing a rightly convicted of a captal criminal
  • A person defending himself or another from imminent life-threatening danger.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Jabez

I think the point BW is tring to make is,what would Jesus do if in that situation?Would he pull out a gun and shoot a robber?
Of course He wouldn't, but we aren't walking by faith in Him, or we'd be of The Same Spirit. We'd have spoken to Frances and to Ivan, and they'd have stopped. We'd have forbidden the terrorists to come to our shores. We'd also be able to shoot lightning bolts out of our arses, and get rid of all un-believers.

I think the point we're trying to make is: we're not Jesus, and don't walk at His Level, just yet. He saw our example of faith, when He said, "O ye of little faith." We're puny. He knew we'd need to protect ourselves, and told the disciples to buy swords, for just such an occasion. He also said that thieves don't come to us, except to kill, steal and destroy.
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Aimiel

Of course, since they weren't even allowed to carry a purse (money) or scrip (notepad). He had instructed them so.

but why that day?
was it to make a point?

what did those sword accomplish?

he never said use them, he stopped the use of them, even healed the ear damaged
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi


how much do we trust, if we do not give our lives?
Do you think God would consider you worse than an infidel for not feeding and clothing your family, but yet call you righteous for turning them over to the hands of a killer?


It is one thing to die for ministering the gospel, and another thing to die because you apathetically stand by while someone rapes and murders your wife and children.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Turbo

We've already given you some examples:
  • A government official executing a rightly convicted of a captal criminal
  • A person defending himself or another from imminent life-threatening danger.

im still not sure thats just today

it was in the OT
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Originally posted by Jabez

If a robber comes into my home and i catch him and rebuke him in the name of Jesus i command him to leave,he will leave unharmed.Do you have enough faith to do it?
What makes you think the robber would leave? When did God ever promise that?

And what do you make of Exodus 22:2-3a? Why is that in the Bible?
 

SOTK

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi

but why that day?
was it to make a point?

what did those sword accomplish?

he never said use them, he stopped the use of them, even healed the ear damaged

It wasn't to make a point, bw, come on! There is only one reason to be ordered to carry weapons....defense. Jesus didn't want any of his disciples to be killed or harmed because He was being persecuted. He wanted them to protect themselves.

He healed that soldiers ear because he felt Peter acted out of anger and was not defending himself but Jesus. Jesus already knew what was going to happen to Him. It was an unnecessary act so he healed the soldier and told Peter to stand down.

That's my interpretation anyways.
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Sozo

Do you think God would consider you worse than an infidel for not feeding and clothing your family, but yet call you righteous for turning them over to the hands of a killer?


It is one thing to die for ministering the gospel, and another thing to die because you apathetically stand by while someone rapes and murders your wife and children.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
what did the early Christians do?

did they let their enemy kill them?

what is lost if you believe in salvation?
 
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