beloved57
Well-known member
Where does it say that it's. not spiritual? I have already given scripture that indicates God's Temple is spiritual.
The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven
- Thread starter TrevorL
- Start date
Where does it say that it's. not spiritual? I have already given scripture that indicates God's Temple is spiritual.
Greetings again clefty and beloved57,
Kind regards
Trevor
My understanding of the difference between humans and animals is that we can hear the words of God, we can reason, we can exercise such thoughts as love, hope, sadness and many others. Man was made in the image and after the likeness of God. The difference between man and the animals is not the fact that we have the breath of life, but that we have a greater capacity to develop into the character and ways of God. If we hold our heads under water or in an oxygen depleted zone, then we will become unconscious, and in danger of dying if the air and sufficient oxygen is not supplied. I do not believe that the first man became programmed in his brain as a result of the air breathed into his nostrils. The whole mechanism of who we are and how we think and remember and have emotions is undoubtedly very complicated, and we most probably only scientifically understand part of this. I was in a way trying to safeguard against the concept of the necessity of an immortal soul, and possibly your explanation is one step towards this concept, that the intelligence of man was breathed into Adam through his nostrils.
My understanding is that Adam and Eve were created with the potential to live for ever, and after a period of probation they would be invited to partake of the tree of life and live for ever. If they failed they would die and return to the dust. The faithful after the resurrection on the basis of forgiveness received through the sacrifice of Christ will be changed by giving them eternal life, and this is figuratively depicted in Revelation as partaking of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God.
I cannot agree with your explanation of Acts 3:19-21. This is Peter’s explanation of what he heard in Acts 1:11 and his understanding of the teaching of the prophets. Jesus will NOT remain in heaven, but return to the earth to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth.
The prophecies of Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 2:35,44 and Zechariah 14 describe the transition from the present kingdoms of men to the time when the Kingdom of God will be established and last for 1000 years. At the beginning of the Kingdom a Temple will be built in Jerusalem that will be for the worship and education of the mortal nations, and the faithful of the past will be kings and priests to educate and guide these mortals. What I find unusual with your claim, clefty, and vivid imagination, is that you have a picture of a whole city and Temple descending, bricks and all, or hewn stones and all, from heaven itself, through the clouds and bouncing down upon the earth, and wrecking anything underneath. I suggest that you have ignored what is clearly literal in Isaiah, Micah and Zechariah, and turned what is clearly figurative in Revelation into a literal object, which of itself makes no sense. Why bring stones down from heaven?
Yes, it is the God of Heaven that is going to replace the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. The Zionists and other Jews who survive Armageddon will be converted and form part of the mortal population during the 1000 years, the first dominion Micah 4:1-8. Your view is that the majority of the present generation, 7 or 8 billion will be destroyed completely. I believe that there will be judgements on the nations, but not total annihilation of the population of the earth Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14.
Not all the details of Matthew 24 are applicable to what will happen in the coming time of trouble. Only EGW and the misguided teach that the latter day controversy is the Sabbath.
Kind regards
Trevor
beloved57
Well-known member
The Temple of God is built already, it's the Church of God. Paul writing to the church of God at Corinth 1 Cor 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Wrote 1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
lately I am more aware of animals and their reasoning as I look around at our burning cities...LOL
sure...and we are to have dominion over the animals as we were made in His image unlike they were...both are formed in the dust we were not merely spoken into existence...but it does NOT say if He breathed into them as with Adam...that breath however is His and was given to us on loan...and breath is Life and Spirit...His
Solomon leaves it at “Who knows” if Spirit of man goes up...and that of the animal goes down...Eccl 3:21
yes we are NOT immortal...only One is...begets Another...Who creates the rest...and dies to save humans...reasoning ones...as Peter seems to think unreasoning ones perish as animals perish 2 Peter 2:12, also Jude 10...although He makes a covenant with them as well Gen 9:9-10 don’t think it is to SAVE them from a second death...
they were...partaking of the tree of Life as it was one of the trees of which they could freely eat of...EXCEPT ONE as even Eve said but then adding “not to touch” in her zeal to obey...thus deceiving herself...
but yes of all the tress save one they were to freely eat...
right but again the CENTRALITY of both trees in the garden was the test...as they approached to eat of the Tree of Life the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was RIGHT THERE as the test...one day Eve was alone...and went...and saw...and touched...NOTHING HAPPENED...she thus ate...
Their eyes opened they saw they were naked...”who told you this?”...they were NO LONGER worthy to eat...but SAVED never the less...GRACE MERCY...NOT killed but spared...by the shedding of blood...from an animal
Separated from the Tree of Life they died...just as we are IF separate from the tree of Golgotha
yes again putting on an Immortality like a cloak...covered by Him
ummm right...which comes down...to the new earth new heaven...Holiness coming down to that which was cleansed and made pure...the faithful within the city the bride...not the city itself...finally on earth as it is in heaven...oh and WITHOUT TEMPLE
AFTER first returning to receive His “that where I am ye made be also”...LATER He comes again to RESTORE ALL THINGS...as it was LONG BEFORE the Temple...
I understand you and yours see that...but I have it as His kingdom lasts forever...not just 1000 years...and is you know...”NOT of this world” made by human hands...
the ROCK smashing all is from Heaven not hewn by human hands...and grows to encompass the world
And yet in this human imagined and human built 1000 year reich no Sabbath keeping?...hmmmm
nope NO temple...
happily there IS NOTHING...its been desolate...second resurrection gives Satan his armies back for the final battle ALL CONSUMED and then even sin and death are NO MORE...cast into fire...turned into sea of glass...LOL
Prophecy is conditional...IF some conditions NOT met THEN some prophecy cancelled...they killed their bridegroom...death did them part...
why turn the Word into flesh? Create flesh AT ALL? He didn’t even want the first Temple...
yup...STONE from heaven unhewn...SMASHING ALL HERE
just for 1000 years but then what? And NO Sabbath during this time? 2/3 Jews killed and the remaining 1/3 forced to convert as NO OTHER OPTION...might as well pre determine this lack of free will
second coming the dead IN CHRIST rise those alive with them...this is the first resurrection...and yes the second death is still to come...as the rest experience first death at this time
EGW?...but yes yes...well aware of HOW HATED the Sabbath is...this Scofield Darby 1000 year reich might just be the latest ruse against it...
but Satan hates “Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua” not just its Sabbath...
Last edited:
Greetings again clefty,
Kind regards
Trevor
I suggest we have stated most of our different perspective on the rest of your post. Pardon my guessing, but I have extensively discussed with many SDAs, including a Pastor who came to my house, who also rejected Zechariah 14 and most of the OT prophecies. No, I am not a supporter of Scofield Darby. I do consider that those who affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and who are thus motivated to be baptised into the death and resurrection of Christ and live the crucified and resurrected life will be saved and inherit with Abraham and Jesus the Land which Abraham viewed.
Kind regards
Trevor
ok...it does interest me how others see the genesis and as to how that determines their revelations...lol...
There is much in the creation account which reveals how it all ends...
But I sense you wish to leave it for now...
oh...SDA...Ellen White you mean then...and the whole second great awakening Millerite group...the original “end of the world” gang...lol
They offered much to this quest is true...much has been added ever since...and then omitted...
also rejected? Not applying prophecy as you do is NOT rejecting it outright...even amongst those that embrace prophecy there is great discrepancies
the irony...Christians passionately embracing the prophecy and promise of the OT (spending billions and losing countless lives for it) yet actually rejecting its terms and conditions...and despite His “Think NOT!”
well you might claim that but...
ok...but this is quite vague...
yes...but as already alluded to this also needs clarity and definition...
true enough but when and where all this occurs is all to be determined...
Or you think the new earth is ONLY between the Euphrates and Nile or the land Abraham viewed?
Greetings again clefty,
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I consider Genesis 3:15 as being an important basis of the Gospel, and then this Gospel is expanded in the various promises to Abraham, and part of these promises to Abraham include the Promise of the Land.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
This Psalm together with the Promise concerning Eve, and then the Promises to Abraham including the Land, and then the Promise to David concerning the King and the Kingdom form the foundation of the Gospel ideas, which are then expanded in the NT and centred in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:5–12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
These things concerning the Kingdom and Name include the Promises mentioned earlier including the Land and the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. They include the outworking of the life, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus and how he will establish the Kingdom on the Throne of David Isaiah 2:1-4. It includes how we can be identified with his death and resurrection through baptism, receiving the forgiveness of sins.
The following can be read in parallel with Psalm 8. Certainly some judgement, but no burnt earth here, or heaven going:
Isaiah 11:1–9 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, and possibly we could concentrate on some of this. I particularly like the promise concerning Eve and her seed:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I consider Genesis 3:15 as being an important basis of the Gospel, and then this Gospel is expanded in the various promises to Abraham, and part of these promises to Abraham include the Promise of the Land.
But while we speak of the early part of Genesis, I consider Psalm 8 speaks of the creation and then speaks of the development from this, in the New Creation centred in Jesus.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
This Psalm together with the Promise concerning Eve, and then the Promises to Abraham including the Land, and then the Promise to David concerning the King and the Kingdom form the foundation of the Gospel ideas, which are then expanded in the NT and centred in our Lord Jesus Christ.
The SDAs adopted some of William Miller’s ideas, and they claim he believed that the world would be burnt for the 1000 years. Other individuals who were part of the awakening believed that the 1000 years would be upon the earth and the restored Israel would be the first dominion of the Kingdom of God and I agree with this group (refer SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine pages 478-479).
Yes, but I have not met a SDA or similar that accepts the realistic, literal view of these prophecies, especially any that say the earth will be completely burnt.
I can guess at your possible allusion, but will allow you to explain. The promises that I mentioned earlier are the New Covenant, but I will wait for your explanation.
I have never read what Scofield and Darby taught.
I consider that Acts 8:12 gives a summary of the Gospel.
Acts 8:5–12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
These things concerning the Kingdom and Name include the Promises mentioned earlier including the Land and the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. They include the outworking of the life, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus and how he will establish the Kingdom on the Throne of David Isaiah 2:1-4. It includes how we can be identified with his death and resurrection through baptism, receiving the forgiveness of sins.
Yes. Feel free to elaborate but I was thinking of Galatians 2:20, 3:1 and other references in Galatians and also Romans 6:1-8.
No, it is the first dominion of the Kingdom of God upon the earth Micah 4:1-8. All the nations and all the territories of the earth will become subject to Christ and the faithful, and the mortal nations will learn of God’s ways during the 1000 years Numbers 14:21, Habakkuk 2:14.
The following can be read in parallel with Psalm 8. Certainly some judgement, but no burnt earth here, or heaven going:
Isaiah 11:1–9 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Kind regards
Trevor
interesting that it was the enmity of the Jews NOT allowing “dirty goyim” entrance into this PROMISE...Eph 2:15...having forgotten it was for ALL nations...
Don’t for get the “silence the enemies and avenger” part verse 2...as the Garden was the battlefield front line between Him and His ways or following another who claimed His Law “NOT FOR ME” and rebelled...
Adam was to have subdued this world and have dominion over it...having failed the second Adam was necessary...highlighting it was His...all of it...given to ALL...who obeyed Him was the term and condition...
[quoteThe SDAs adopted some of William Miller’s ideas, and they claim he believed that the world would be burnt for the 1000 years.[/quote] ok
ok...and yes your position is clear...
Yes, but I have not met a SDA or similar that accepts the realistic, literal view of these prophecies, especially any that say the earth will be completely burnt.[/quote] ok
not much more than what has happened with Zionism and all who support it including V2 and American foreign policy since well before 1913 even?
yes yes...all about land and temporal power from Jerusalem...the mystery of Christendom until Scofield and Darby + Zionism developed the promise of return...
oh?...
to the Samaritans...hmmmm...given to ALL...
oh good yes forgiveness of sins...was thinking it was just about land...
I was just keeping it that the inheritance was to the adopted who had learned the ways of the Son and followed His citizenship rules...so to say...claim to be IN Him LIVE like Him says John...
ok...well...all about the land and power for you then...Scofield and Darby and the zionists would approve...
Greetings again clefty,
Acts 28:23–31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Spirit by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
To add another Scripture to the teaching that the Land is part of the Gospel, consider the following statement by Jesus and the Scripture where Jesus is quoting from and alluding:
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:7–11 (KJV): 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
But notice the wider context. This is talking about the Kingdom, when the faithful, the meek will inherit the earth, but the wicked will be judged and removed. This is a reversal of the present conditions.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, to all. The same language used in Acts 8:12, which is Philip’s preaching the Gospel to the Samaritans, is repeated when Paul was preaching the Gospel to the Jews and the Gentiles. One Gospel, One Message, one result - salvation.
Acts 28:23–31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Spirit by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Yes, forgiveness of sins is a major element of the Gospel, and this is part of “the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ” Acts 8:12, 28:31. The land promise is an essential part of the Gospel, and those that advocate going to heaven at death or at the return of Jesus either ignore this teaching or reject it altogether.
Yes in general, but it is the Gospel affectionately believed that is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16-17. I suspect that you are possibly advocating a similar concept to SDAs and I suggest a careful consideration of Romans 7 and 8 could help, but I will let you elaborate.
I have encountered Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. Is this what Scofield and Darby teach? The ones that I have briefly engaged with taught some sort of heaven going, either at death or the return of Jesus and I reject any sort of heaven going including your concept which includes burning the earth. I also suspected that they taught that during the 1000 years, Jesus and the Apostles will be on the earth with natural Israel, while Paul and the Gentiles will be in heaven. I consider that this is a ridiculous and contradictory concept.
To add another Scripture to the teaching that the Land is part of the Gospel, consider the following statement by Jesus and the Scripture where Jesus is quoting from and alluding:
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:7–11 (KJV): 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
But notice the wider context. This is talking about the Kingdom, when the faithful, the meek will inherit the earth, but the wicked will be judged and removed. This is a reversal of the present conditions.
Kind regards
Trevor
beloved57
Well-known member
It's talking about heaven, the eternal heavenly country
again halleluYah...there are those that wish to divide His family between those that do vs those that don’t think they need to anymore...
yes yes...teaching those things which concern Yahushua...but I note that none of the gospels has Him teach anymore about the Land...the disciples asked about it and He even dismisses it again...directing them to the ends of the world. Acts 1:8
part? Oh ok...as in a by product? Side effect? Of the real gospel which is LAND ACQUISITION and COMPLETE TEMPORAL POWER and RICHES can’t forget those...
do they? It all ends in the new heaven and new earth ALL flesh worships from New Moon to New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath...and in a pretty nice place...
right...just like the ENTIRE OT...they were ALL to live by faith...having been saved they keep the Law...that is the pattern STILL...faith compels obedience to Him His ways...not our own or former ways...but His people both those of Jacob and those NOT of Jacob as specifically noted in the Sabbath commandment the ONLY ONE inclusive of the strangers saved with them...
Have been...look around at my other posts...but again Paul means we are to establish the Law. Romans 3:31 because it is holy just and good Romans 7:12 and spiritual 14 and he delights in the law 22 and thanks Yah through Yahushua he serves the Law 25
More of that in chapter 8 if you want...let’s just say COULD the Law be changed or abolished ODD He didnt do it before His Son was given up...8:32 but it is Yah Who justifies because He did give Him up FOLLOWING THE LAW...and only our rejection of Him His ways and Love can seperate us from what is promised...
But you think you can lay claim to what is promised BY THE LAW and SECURED IN THE LAW and guaranteed BY HIS DEATH BECUASE OF THE LAW by living NOT according to it...a citizen of Israel but NOT its laws? Inheriting a lawful kingdom by its law...but NOT representing ITS KING by NOT living as He did...?
well it is MADness...but you seem to divide the kingdom just has MADly...and in that MAD spirit for its own reward...LAND and POWER
sure...but note it does not say WHEN they inherit it...
yup...we are WAITING not rebuilding the temple or establishing a kingdom...waiting for a time when the wicked shall NOT BE...not converted by a 1000 year reich kingdom
“THOU SHALT DILIGENTLY CONSIDER HIS PLACE AND IT SHALL NOT BE” notice that? What place? Why shall it NOT BE?
Yahushua Himself instructed that “if they say to you Look He is in the desert DO NOT GO OUT or LOOK He is in the inner rooms DO NOT BELIEVE IT”
What is more desert than those lands claimed holy? What is more inner room than the temple they will construct?
Golden calves are still being made...but He needs NO TEMPLE...and when the meek finally inherit the earth it will be a NEW EARTH with NO TEMPLE...
Happy Sabbath btw...might as well start living like Him now since it’s ALL headed to where “I am ye may be also...”
Last edited:
Greetings again beloved57 and clefty,
I was thinking about how I should answer beloved57, but I was content with his (or her) last post as it was 98% my post repeated and his (or her) saying exactly the same again. But I have compared his (or her) post above with a quotation from my previous post to possibly suggest that the future Kingdom is a heavenly Kingdom, and this Kingdom will be upon the earth. Abraham is to inherit the Land, and the faithful are to inherit the earth, which on first reading is ALL the earth, but may be really talking about the same promise to Abraham.
I also realised that I did not answer you when you objected to my use of Daniel 2:35,44 that the Kingdom will fill the earth. This is one passage that could help to define “heavenly country” because if it can be proved that the Kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:44 is upon the earth, then the phrase “in the days of these kings the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom” may help to define “heavenly country” as a country or city or kingdom that is established by the God of heaven. It is OF heaven, not IN heaven.
My brief answer to your objection to my view of Daniel 2 is that Daniel 2 is parallel to Daniel 7, and also the latter part of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 is also parallel in some detail to the latter parts of Daniel 8 and 11, and parallel to aspects Revelation 17. Daniel 2 is also parallel to Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14 and many other prophecies. All of these provide detail of the transition between the kingdoms of men and the Kingdom of God upon the earth. There is absolutely no proof that at the coming of Christ, that the earth is to be burnt with say a giant blow torch or flame thrower, or if you have read Neville Shute’s novel “On the Beach”, by nuclear war and explosions.
Kind regards
Trevor
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
I was thinking about how I should answer beloved57, but I was content with his (or her) last post as it was 98% my post repeated and his (or her) saying exactly the same again. But I have compared his (or her) post above with a quotation from my previous post to possibly suggest that the future Kingdom is a heavenly Kingdom, and this Kingdom will be upon the earth. Abraham is to inherit the Land, and the faithful are to inherit the earth, which on first reading is ALL the earth, but may be really talking about the same promise to Abraham.
I also realised that I did not answer you when you objected to my use of Daniel 2:35,44 that the Kingdom will fill the earth. This is one passage that could help to define “heavenly country” because if it can be proved that the Kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:44 is upon the earth, then the phrase “in the days of these kings the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom” may help to define “heavenly country” as a country or city or kingdom that is established by the God of heaven. It is OF heaven, not IN heaven.
My brief answer to your objection to my view of Daniel 2 is that Daniel 2 is parallel to Daniel 7, and also the latter part of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 is also parallel in some detail to the latter parts of Daniel 8 and 11, and parallel to aspects Revelation 17. Daniel 2 is also parallel to Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14 and many other prophecies. All of these provide detail of the transition between the kingdoms of men and the Kingdom of God upon the earth. There is absolutely no proof that at the coming of Christ, that the earth is to be burnt with say a giant blow torch or flame thrower, or if you have read Neville Shute’s novel “On the Beach”, by nuclear war and explosions.
They preached the Kingdom of God, and this includes the promise of the Land. The Land is the dominion of the Kingdom and the King relates to the promises of David and the Throne of David in Jerusalem, the capital of the dominion.
There are many elements that add up to the things that are part of the Name of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God. These would include ALL of what is necessary to teach and believe the ONE Gospel. If I could state two, The Atonement, Jesus is the Son of God. In other words what Philip and Paul preached was all that is part of salvation through identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus and the true hope of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.
Perhaps you have a different vision and hope.
I could answer this section (clipped) in detail, but I am not under the Law of Moses as this has been replaced by Christ and I do not keep the Sabbath as I find rest in Christ Matthew 11:25-30.
Briefly, the wicked who David confronted such as Saul eventually perished, but also some of these wicked will be raised and judged Daniel 12:2-3 and perish. This does not fit the period which is now, as there will be a transition between the present kingdoms of men and the Kingdom of God. There will not be universal individual standing before the judgement seat of Christ, as most of mankind is not directly responsible to this process.
Kind regards
Trevor
Nanja
Well-known member
Absolutely Brother !
Greetings again beloved57 and Nanja,
Matthew 5:3 (KJV): Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, I agree with you. Nice to see that we agree on some things. The OT and NT faithful will all inherit the Land that was promised to Abraham and His Seed Genesis 13:14-15 Galatians 3:8-9,16,26-29 (refer OP). They will be partakers of the Kingdom of Heaven, from heaven, or of, meaning derived from heaven not in heaven and thus inherit the Land:
Matthew 5:3 (KJV): Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
btw...there is quite a long history here on TOL of another poster continually agreeing with beloved57’s every post as “my brother”...HE has not corrected her
hope you can resolve that too...
right Yah will set up the kingdom and NEEDS NO TEMPLE is why the new earth He sets up HAS NONE...is why we should stand aside as others work on their golden calf to set up for themselves a tower that reaches the heavens...
Please note again that STONE was cut out (out of what) without hands and struck the feet...crushed...became like chaff...so that NO TRACE of them was found...that STONE grew of its own accord and filled the WHOLE EARTH not just what Abraham saw...and set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed...WITHOUT A TEMPLE...and the STONE will CONSUME (annihilate...NO TRACE)...NOT ABSORB or ASSIMILATE but CONSUME ALL these kingdoms and stand forever...not just 1000 years to be replaced yet again...
there is much about desolation you seem to ignore...namely that He is a CONSUMING FIRE...and anything SIN STAINED will be consumed...NO TRACE...even the meek will return in GLORIFIED bodies having put on IMMORTALITY and given a new name...to inherit the earth...as the Lamb FINALLY took away the sins of the world...you know...when this heaven and earth are passed away...sin and death cast into fire...
the promise was never again with WATER to purify the world...next time it is with FIRE
they preached the SALVATION FROM SIN...the freedom FROM DEATH...restoration with LIFE ETERNAL...you know OF ALL THINGS...
that is the GOOD NEWS...”that where I am ye may be also”
sure but a RESURRECTION was the Hope of Israel...WE are the temple was preached...as the Temple still stood...the rejected Him for what YOU want...temple and temporal power...despite being TEMPorary...lol
ironic there was no king when this land was promised
king throne temple all NOT plan A...and the restoration of ALL things since from the beginning Yah knowing His works since from the beginning
not when it was promised...again NOT plan A
your DOM is merely a domain...-ion is the suffix denoting verb and resultant state...rule power
Adam and Eve were to have dominion over ALL things...they wanted something else...
Satan was banished here “fell to earth”...MANKIND was to SUPPLANT HIM...DOMinate HIM...DOMinate sin...his rule...as he was first born here...is why those not of His people the first born were killed by One first begotten Who was ALSO killed...TO RESTORE ALL THINGS...
He was to be their King they wanted something else...Saul “supplanted” by David...
The Temple was NEVER Plan A...David wanted it...as you do...
There are many elements that add up to the things that are part of the Name of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God. These would include ALL of what is necessary to teach and believe the ONE Gospel. If I could state two, The Atonement, Jesus is the Son of God. [/quote] yes the atONEment the restoration of a relationship with Him...”where I am ye may be also”...where doesnt matter...but yes at the end HERE on the NEW cleansed by fire rested restored Holy and PURE earth with NO TEMPLE when AND where ALL flesh will worship New Moon to New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath...
As head of the treasury of Kush the eunuch was NOT concerned about restoring Jerusalem to world DOMinance...but the One Who bore sin and made intercession for transgressors...money men right? LOL
IS WHY he was reading Isaiah 53...NOT about temporal power tactics but SPIRITUAL RESTORATION
Paul at Mars Hill in the middle of another temple reminded the word sleuth powers of Who really ran the nations and will one day judge them...BUT his message was about Man He ordained (anointed christened) as the standard which He resurrected...
But you make it about temples and land like the other idols on that hill...
That temple BTW was at the foot of a ROCK at which in classical times was a COURT that tried cases of MURDER...
But Paul’s message was about One RAISED from the dead...and coming judgement of the world...
Sadly those chasing after NEW DOCTRINES mocked and rejected Paul’s message...hmmm not enough about TEMPLES and POWER?
than what Paul preached? Or Philip? Nawww not really...”copy me AS I copy Christ” and Isaiah have ALL those that do so end up in a really nice place...”Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and have the faith OF Yahushua” Here is where? And by which faith? Buddhist Muslim Catholic Protestant...pagan...or His...
again...Darby and Scofield and the other Zionists would approve
“think not that” but you do anyways...
Father and Son are the image we are created in...but NOT to follow? Sabbath is part of the restoration of ALL things as it was before Temples were needed...the irony...you reject what was given to all man BEFORE it was needed...and wish for what was given to Jews because it was needed...and to add insult to injury...you claim the PROMISE but reject the Law it is enshrined in and even claim the One Who died to guarantee that RIGHT ENSHRINED (even for you a goyim)...DESTROYED it...LOL
That is NOT very “copy me AS I copy Christ” is it?
That yoke is still His...and identifies Who feeds and stables you...Whose work you are to do AS He did...”Follow me”
Because our Love for Him we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome...1 John 5:3
If you think you are IN Christ you must live as He did 1 John 2:6
And since you work for Him...He gives your rest...you are NOT at rest...is why a sabbatismos a Sabbath keeping remains for His people Heb 4:9
You know...even after ALL things are restored...ya dig?
as did David and was buried still
some? ALL have sinned by a Law that STILL points it out...ALL will stand trial...some to die the SECOND death...at the END...just before ALL things are restored...
present kingdom is being built with claims it is God’s...temple and dominion from Jerusalem...His people come OUT of this Babylon system...
Oh my...ok...reject Rev 20...specifically 11-15
Not only are ALL judged as all have sinned...but then those NOT receiving the mark of the beast will judge the books on appeal (reign WITH Christ for 1000 years) to CONFIRM each final judgement as GOOD...and then the second death after sentencing...
But the rest of the dead (those NOT resurrected at His coming to take His to be “where I am”) still know nothing during that 1000 years (seventh day) rest...as the world lays desolate...but then judgement day (sentencing phase)and the second death...
And the new earth with a city descended (that STONE...He is the Rock cornerstone stumbling block)...will have NO TEMPLE...and from New Moon to New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath ALL flesh will come worship...not just Jews...
Greetings again clefty,
Daniel 12:1–3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
At this particular time “many”, not all shall awake, and of these some will be rewarded with everlasting life and the others rejected.
The following also speaks of those who are dwelling in the dust, and when Jesus returns they will be raised. This will include Isaiah himself.
Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
In contrast to this resurrection of the faithful some will remain in the grave.
Isaiah 26:13–14 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Kind regards
Trevor
Due to time constraints and other interests, I have decided to only respond to the subject of the judgement at the return of Christ and I will only quote a few key passages. In the following I have also quoted verse 1 to indicate that the resurrection occurs at the return of Jesus, during a time of trouble, and this is before the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.
Daniel 12:1–3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
At this particular time “many”, not all shall awake, and of these some will be rewarded with everlasting life and the others rejected.
The following also speaks of those who are dwelling in the dust, and when Jesus returns they will be raised. This will include Isaiah himself.
Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
In contrast to this resurrection of the faithful some will remain in the grave.
Isaiah 26:13–14 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Kind regards
Trevor
beloved57
Well-known member
We dont agree on these things !
ok...
yup...the FIRST resurrection...and well...a first necessarily means a SECOND and not just one or?
[/COLOR=blue] yup dreams and prophecy timelines which over lap and are not sequential retold from different perspective...not easy to untangle...is why Sadducees even believed there WAS NO RESURRECTION...so at least we are further along than that...
does that mean at the same time or 1000 years later...because prophetic times jumps around as you demonstrate later in this post...
[/COLOR] yup...
exactly...those that sleep in the dust and have their names in the book of life are awaken...resurrected...the first one...at His coming to take those resurrected and those alive to be “where I am there ye may be also”...I mean He aint here on earth right? Meaning He does NOT join us here...but takes us to where He has prepared temporary sukkot mansions for us while earth our permanent home is cleansed purified prepared...for a restoration of ALL things since the beginning...
right...putting on immortality on glorified bodies...if their name is indeed in the book of life...
and joined by the evil living at the time of His coming who perish at His glory asking the mountains to fall on them ...the earth then left desolate until the end of 1000 year and then the second resurrection of the evil dead and their final attack On the New city come down...
overlapped by the SENTENCING PHASE after all the books have been gone over to make sure the JUDGEMENT is JUST...”hey Bob why isn’t my mom here?” “Well...let’s look at the books” “oh my...I never knew that”...”HalleluYah He IS WORTHY His Judgements ARE FAIR”
“Hey how’s Adolf here?” “Well let’s look at the books” “Let’s see...here he is Adolf Schallamach...a Jewish scientist” LOL see? names matter...we all have a record...and will need mercy...
yup...THY DEAD...your people asleep...now awakened at His second coming first resurrection...but then keep reading:
20 “Come my people” and WHAT? RULE TRIUMPHANT FOR a 1000 year reich?
“...enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself as it were for a little moment Until the indignation is past.” You know after 1000 years Sukkot in heaven in temporary booths He prepared for us that where He is we might be also...but then
21 “For behold the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity the earth will also disclose her blood and will no more cover her slain...” See? second resurrection as the rest of the dead did not live until after the 1000 years desolation...but now the sentencing phase and final assault on the city come down at the end of 1000 years to a purified NEW EARTH after its Sabbath day millennium rest
SEE? you jump around so much...understandable it is prophetic timelines...
just start at the beginning of the chapter to see who and why and when:
Isaiah 26
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
“We have a strong city;
God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.
3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.
4 Trust in the Lord forever,
For in Yah, the Lord, is everlasting strength.(see NAMES matter)
5 For He brings down those who dwell on high,
The lofty city;
He lays it low,
He lays it low to the ground,
He brings it down to the dust.
6 The foot shall tread it down—
The feet of the poor
And the steps of the needy.”
7 The way of the just is uprightness;
O Most Upright,
You weigh the path of the just.
8 Yes, in the way of Your judgments,
O Lord, we have waited for You;
The desire of our soul is for Your name
And for the remembrance of You.
9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
10 Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the Lord. (grace to the wicked NOT enough? OUCH)
11 Lord, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see.
But they will see and be ashamed
For their envy of people;
Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them. wow...so in that final assault they will burn up...duh...wicked approaching an IMMORTAL consuming fire does that...
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us. He cleansed us...
13 O Lord our God, masters besides You
Have had dominion over us;
But by You only we make mention of Your name.(See NAMES matter)
14 They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish. (but then see end of chapter...final sentencing...slain no more covered...but consumed annihilated)
15 You have increased the nation, O Lord,
You have increased the nation;
You are glorified;
You have expanded all the borders of the land.” Yup I’ll say...to ALL THE WORLD...a restoration of ALL things His people to Him where He is...here on the New Earth His throne...
The meek will indeed inherit the Earth...the New Earth...cleansed purified made holy...with NO TEMPLE
And NOT the 1000 year world dominant reich with Temple reign...
But ”Hide yourself as it were for a little moment”
Isaiah knows that in the NEW HEAVEN and the NEW EARTH that ALL flesh will come New Moon to New Moon and Sabbath to Sabbath to worship...Isaiah 66:22-23
halleluYah!
Last edited:
Greetings again beloved57 and clefty,
Isaiah 26:9–10 (KJV): 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
I apply this to the period surrounding Armageddon and beyond leading up to full establishment of the Kingdom. My understanding is that you believe that the nations will be destroyed and the earth burnt.
Kind regards
Trevor
On reflection, I considered that this could be the case. I was not sure if you, or Nanja who often echoes what you say, have a simple explanation of Matthew 5:3 and Matthew 5:5 as to whether these are speaking of the same people, the faithful from Eden unto the Second Coming and beyond. Also whether their destiny is the same, using different terms to describe the ultimate destiny of these faithful. Possibly Jesus unravels your unusual views in his usual few succinct words.
I consider that there is a resurrection of some only, that is those “responsible” (my term) to judgement, basically those who have heard and understood the gospel. The righteous, that is those justified by faith and forgiven, will be those who have responded to the gospel and lived a life in conformity, while those rejected at this first resurrection and judgement seat are those who have not lived in conformity to the Gospel.
I am happy with my perspective, blending many of the prominent prophecies to form a reasonable overall perspective. I am ready to adjust some of the details of my understanding of these as the actual events unfold.
At the same time as suggested above.
No, I do not believe in heaven going, but the faithful are resurrected to inherit the Land.
I view the sequence of the above is that Jesus returns, raises the dead and judges these raised and the living “responsible”, and invites the faithful to hide for a little moment as the time of trouble increases, and then Jesus and the faithful go forth to subdue the nations at Armageddon and beyond, and then the Kingdom is established for the 1000 years.
I would also emphasise the following:
Isaiah 26:9–10 (KJV): 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
I apply this to the period surrounding Armageddon and beyond leading up to full establishment of the Kingdom. My understanding is that you believe that the nations will be destroyed and the earth burnt.
For example Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome have had rule over Israel, but the rulers and oppressors have died, and the majority of these, unbelievers in the Gospel, will not rise in the resurrection. They are perished. This is true of most people who are not at all interested in the Gospel.
Yes, I am extremely interested in the Name and titles of the Deity in both the OT and NT. You would need to elaborate, but what translation of Exodus 3:14 do you accept?
Why do you use the term reich, as it has a bad history? This "Earth" and "New Earth"is the 1000 years reign of Jesus and he will sit upon the Throne of David in the Temple, as King Priest.
Kind regards
Trevor
Last edited: