The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

[clefty]

Greetings to you, too. So, Jesus, with those layers, was sort of making a doctrinal, deluxe bean dip, albeit spiritual beans? (Is there anywhere in scripture where you believe God means exactly what He says, could perhaps thus narrow the focus?) Whatever the case, I'm relieved at it not being double story mansions, as I'd always envisioned something sprawling, preferably off the beaten path, maybe in the foothills, but ranch style, couldn't see having to walk up and down stairs, for all eternity. But I do believe all those "carnal Christians" that touched the TV set for Billy Graham, then it was back to that dusty Bible, drinks all around at the bar and football, are going to be quite disappointed over the dearth of bars and swimming pools! Maybe you could at least offer them hope of NASCAR?

You thinking then Moses and Elijah sort of got punked, too? The God of the living sent them back to the dead? Never mind that, on second thought. Not sure I'm ready for the rest of that doctrine.

Since you don't believe in eternal spirits, or anybody going to heaven, but take it you believe in some sort of resurrection body, so what's your Second Coming scenario? The Lord Jesus comes back, gives you forty acres and a mule, in Israel?

It dawned on me you have the makings of a whole new denomination there! Let me know if you need help naming it.

LOL..real funny guy here..

so a new denomination? for what? believing like the first century church did?

I understand you might not recognize it but yeah the first century church believed that spirits are NOT eternal...upon death they go back to Him Who gave them out...and do not float about heaven unable to hug or kiss or eat...LOL "hey Bob nice to see you...kinda...but glad you're here...would shake your hand but...we are spirits" LOL

Man is MORTAL as only ONE is IMMORTAL...we were created mortal...dependent on the tree of life...is why when separated from that tree.. our spirits couldn't keep our bodies alive...body dies goes back to dust...spirit returns to the One Who lent it and the soul is suspended...the dead know NOTHING and can NOT praise


Yeah that first century church was NOT Hellenized with magic spirits and filled with ancestral worship...all that came later...

Recall the Sadducees didn't even believe in the resurrection or life after death...

as for going to heavenly mansion He made for us...yeah they rejected that too...and the church has continued that practice of rejecting Him His ways...

As for 40 acres and a mule...LOL...

I always suspected that those that were so progressive that it was about "Love everybody" and "grace alone" and rejected His laws and even wanted to defund His policing had a Democrat God...LOL

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “WonderfulLordJesus”,

So, Jesus, with those layers, was sort of making a doctrinal, deluxe bean dip, albeit spiritual beans? (Is there anywhere in scripture where you believe God means exactly what He says, could perhaps thus narrow the focus?) Whatever the case, I'm relieved at it not being double story mansions, as I'd always envisioned something sprawling, preferably off the beaten path, maybe in the foothills, but ranch style, couldn't see having to walk up and down stairs, for all eternity.

Before reading much more of my post, could you answer to yourself as to how you understand the following.
John 14:1–2 (KJV): 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Now does your assessment agree with “God means exactly what He says”?

Let me guess at how you read the above, based upon the rest of your post. You believe that this is saying that Jesus is going to heaven and he is going to prepare a place for you in heaven, and part of this is that there are various forms of accommodation, ready to receive the immortal souls of the faithful when they die. Perhaps you may have some variation of this, and I would like you to state your particular view, as there are many varieties held by Baptists and other similar advocates.

But I do believe all those "carnal Christians" that touched the TV set for Billy Graham, then it was back to that dusty Bible, drinks all around at the bar and football, are going to be quite disappointed over the dearth of bars and swimming pools! Maybe you could at least offer them hope of NASCAR?

My guess at your assessment is to some extent based upon you mentioning Billy Graham. I suggest that he was a strong advocate of the view that the faithful go to heaven when they die. Another experience is that I responded by going to a local Baptist Church that advertised that the speaker would speak about what would happen at the Second Coming of Jesus. There was no mention about the Second Coming, but his message was unless you repent you will burn in hell for eternity.

Could I draw your attention to the next verse?
John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus does not say that he is going to heaven and soon, when you die, your immortal soul will come to heaven. Rather it says that Jesus will return and then receive them unto Him, and that as a result they will be with him. Perhaps this is one layer that I hope you consider. I will not detail other layers as yet, but you may like to read John 12:20-36 and John 13:31-38 if you want to determine this for yourself.

You thinking then Moses and Elijah sort of got punked, too? The God of the living sent them back to the dead? Never mind that, on second thought. Not sure I'm ready for the rest of that doctrine.

Again it is up to you, but I believe that the transfiguration was a vision of the future Kingdom, fully enacted with Moses and Elijah. Yes, I believe that Moses and Elijah were there with Peter, James and John. It says that Moses and Elijah appeared in glory. Do immortal souls look the same as the bodies, or were the bodies of Moses and Elijah resurrected before the resurrection that will occur at the return of Jesus.

Since you don't believe in eternal spirits, or anybody going to heaven, but take it you believe in some sort of resurrection body, so what's your Second Coming scenario? The Lord Jesus comes back, gives you forty acres and a mule, in Israel?

The Apostles are going to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, and the rest of the faithful are stated to be kings and priests throughout the Kingdom period. A priestly function can be wide-ranging, including teaching. I would like to discuss and teach a proper understanding of Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6, but maybe would be given some menial task as a doorkeeper..

It dawned on me you have the makings of a whole new denomination there! Let me know if you need help naming it.

No need, what I have stated, possibly not very well or clearly, has been around for a long time.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beloved57]

Greetings again “WonderfulLordJesus”, Before reading much more of my post, could you answer to yourself as to how you understand the following.
John 14:1–2 (KJV): 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Now does your assessment agree with “God means exactly what He says”?

Let me guess at how you read the above, based upon the rest of your post. You believe that this is saying that Jesus is going to heaven and he is going to prepare a place for you in heaven, and part of this is that there are various forms of accommodation, ready to receive the immortal souls of the faithful when they die. Perhaps you may have some variation of this, and I would like you to state your particular view, as there are many varieties held by Baptists and other similar advocates.
My guess at your assessment is to some extent based upon you mentioning Billy Graham. I suggest that he was a strong advocate of the view that the faithful go to heaven when they die. Another experience is that I responded by going to a local Baptist Church that advertised that the speaker would speak about what would happen at the Second Coming of Jesus. There was no mention about the Second Coming, but his message was unless you repent you will burn in hell for eternity.

Could I draw your attention to the next verse?
John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus does not say that he is going to heaven and soon, when you die, your immortal soul will come to heaven. Rather it says that Jesus will return and then receive them unto Him, and that as a result they will be with him. Perhaps this is one layer that I hope you consider. I will not detail other layers as yet, but you may like to read John 12:20-36 and John 13:31-38 if you want to determine this for yourself.
Again it is up to you, but I believe that the transfiguration was a vision of the future Kingdom, fully enacted with Moses and Elijah. Yes, I believe that Moses and Elijah were there with Peter, James and John. It says that Moses and Elijah appeared in glory. Do immortal souls look the same as the bodies, or were the bodies of Moses and Elijah resurrected before the resurrection that will occur at the return of Jesus.
The Apostles are going to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, and the rest of the faithful are stated to be kings and priests throughout the Kingdom period. A priestly function can be wide-ranging, including teaching. I would like to discuss and teach a proper understanding of Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6, but maybe would be given some menial task as a doorkeeper..
No need, what I have stated, possibly not very well or clearly, has been around for a long time.

Kind regards
Trevor

Everything future belongs to Christ and His Church 1 Cor 3:22-23

²² Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

²³ And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

My guess at your assessment is to some extent based upon you mentioning Billy Graham. I suggest that he was a strong advocate of the view that the faithful go to heaven when they die.

Add Paul, et al, to Billy Graham, such as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:21-24. You can't say the Lord or the apostles shared what seems to be your zeal for the grave, some waiting room, then, or your Moses and Elijah death cage, intermittent reincarnation theory? (That was a rhetorical question.)

Yes, I'm a fundamentalist, simple as that, in near entire agreement with a group of Protestant Bible teachers and preachers which all agree as to many primal doctrines in scripture, which is evidence of the Spirit working in a body of faithful men and women of God. And I don't generally find it fruitful to argue what I see as settled truth a person either receives, or not, believe the largest body of scripture quite literal, that you don't invent symbols in matter of fact statements, God not the author of confusion. In my life, I've found quite the contrary to confusion in the Lord's remarkable, precise word, having great peace in this, as a matter of fact, the consistency of literal scripture.

That aside, I would like to clarify I have zero disdain for Billy Graham, rather have a great respect for the evangelist. I have no doubt the Lord brought many to a saving faith through the ministry of Reverend Graham. What I was referring to are those that I cannot see are actually Christian, that is, those that went forward for Billy Graham but never really repented, have no desire to pursue God's word in scripture, have no fruit of the Spirit in their lives, no progressive sanctification, persist in and are content in the practice of sin, etc. I've met quite some number of such in my life, whose confession is the likes of, "We're all just sinners, saved by grace."

The Holy Bible is a large volume, not a pamphlet: the whole gospel does not fit on a business card, the Lord not verbose. The whole Bible context is repentance, worshiping God in spirit and in truth, seriously seeking the Lord, seriously loving the Lord, first, righteousness, living through the power of being born again of the Holy Spirit, earnestly seeking not to grieve the Spirit. I believe there's a reason one can't tell the "carnal Christian" from the spiritually dead of the world, because they aren't really Christians. That is, nobody touches the TV set for Billy Graham, then back to drinks all around at the bar. Anybody that is not repentant is, in fact, merely mocking God and trying to make cheap the precious blood of the Lord Jesus. Anyway, I was not slamming Billy Graham, as you would surely do of his teaching. In any event, Revelation 3:15-16, Matthew 7:13-27, Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21. You can't say somebody of the Spirit is somehow not being led into all truth, put it this way, not being disciplined or dead, otherwise, John 16:13, Hebrews 12, 1 John 5:15-16. Hey! There are some new verses for you to find new symbols in, lest you believe your lying eyes over what scripture is literally saying, you know...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “WonderfulLordJesus”,

Add Paul, et al, to Billy Graham, such as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:21-24.

Perhaps you should quote the whole passage and you may see that it is not talking about immortal souls wafting off to heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:4–10 (KJV): 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And it mentions the judgement seat of Christ, and the hope of Paul when he was about to die, "depart", was the return of Jesus, his vindication at the judgement seat and the reward of the crown of immortal life, and the establishment of the kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

You can't say the Lord or the apostles shared what seems to be your zeal for the grave, some waiting room, then, or your Moses and Elijah death cage, intermittent reincarnation theory? (That was a rhetorical question.)

I do not have a zeal for the grave, but accept that man is mortal and after death awaits the resurrection:
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
We buried a 100 year old relative recently, and she shared the grave with her husband who died 38 years earlier. They will both awake together. The plaque on the grave reads “In hope of the resurrection”. The ceremonies conducted by the various Reverends for the adjacent graves, because they are paid, send the good and the bad to heaven, possibly using John 14:1, even though it speaks about the return of Jesus, not heaven going.

The Holy Bible is a large volume, not a pamphlet: the whole gospel does not fit on a business card, the Lord not verbose. The whole Bible context is repentance, worshiping God in spirit and in truth, seriously seeking the Lord, seriously loving the Lord, first, righteousness, living through the power of being born again of the Holy Spirit, earnestly seeking not to grieve the Spirit.

I can endorse your sentiments, but concerned that you have not allowed the word of God to teach you that man is mortal.

Hey! There are some new verses for you to find new symbols in, lest you believe your lying eyes over what scripture is literally saying, you know...

Sad, that you ended on that note. I will allow you to reconsider on the basis of the following:
1 John 3:1–3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[clefty]

Greetings again “WonderfulLordJesus”, Perhaps you should quote the whole passage and you may see that it is not talking about immortal souls wafting off to heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:4–10 (KJV): 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being

Kind regards
Trevor

Just because you did not address Philippians 1:23 Paul’s desire to depart...and be with Christ...

Most insist Paul ignores the timeline he lays out elsewhere...

death —-> “a waiting”—-> the resurrection

Even in this chapter to the Philippians Paul expects one to understand the Day of Christ (Resurrection) is of most importance and NOT the day of one’s death...

Verse 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

The day one dies =/= day of Christ...but at the last trump...

oh and He doesnt keep working on you after you die until that day...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings clefty,

Just because you did not address Philippians 1:23 Paul’s desire to depart...and be with Christ...

I appreciate your comments. I am not particularly interested in changing this thread into a full discussion of immortal souls going to heaven when we die. If we discuss this we need to start in Genesis 3:19, rather than Greek philosophy and superstition. I started to explain some aspects of John 14:1, but I received no response. Another aspect of John 14:1 is that it is set in the context of the words immediately spoken before. The chapter division obscures this connection.
John 13:36–38 (KJV): 36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. 37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake. 38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The rooster shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Jesus is not speaking here of going to heaven, but he was going to offer himself in the crucifixion. It is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection that a place is prepared for us in the spiritual Temple, the Father’s house. No mention of immortal souls.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[clefty]

Greetings clefty, I appreciate your comments.

and I appreciate your responses...and NOT just because it is so slow around here...ha

I am not particularly interested in changing this thread into a full discussion of immortal souls going to heaven when we die.

ok...

you might not want to but in a thread dealing with what was promised and when...I find it most appropriate...

it being about that which was Spiritual becoming flesh...on earth as it is in heaven...to fill the earth and subdue it...but with a third temple?...

that you might be where I am also...and the New earth too?

If we discuss this we need to start in Genesis 3:19, rather than Greek philosophy and superstition.

yup...start in the beginning...Spirit of Yah hovering...man created in His image/likeness NOT from His substance...but from the ground formed and breathed into...and then becoming alive...a living being...dust + Spirit = living soul...a delicate formula

Created dependent on the tree of life...and NOT immortal...no part of him...

I started to explain some aspects of John 14:1, but I received no response.

LOL..Yes a reasonable but differing opinion seems to easily spook most around here...silence remains their retort and answer...

I too await responses...

But yes cemeteries are full of those desired to go to heaven by their families and loved ones...just as surely as “He didnt do nothing” or “he was a good boy” when mugshots say otherwise...

And for centuries the comfort of “grandma is in heaven looking down” was solace and comfort...R I P is the typical send off...I have not seen R I H...rest in hell...LOL

Not even sure Roman Catholics have cemeteries for the damned anymore...buried off holy ground...and only in 1963 permitted cremations...but not spreading the ashes or keeping them in jar...

physical vs. spiritual continues...

Another aspect of John 14:1 is that it is set in the context of the words immediately spoken before. The chapter division obscures this connection.

John 13:36–38 (KJV): 36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. 37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake. 38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The rooster shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Jesus is not speaking here of going to heaven, but he was going to offer himself in the crucifixion. It is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection that a place is prepared for us in the spiritual Temple, the Father’s house.

the question remains...is this our permanent home up there in heaven in those mansions...or are we not to come back HERE to a new earth...a physical land promised to us as well...

Seems like some would even divide His kingdom...have two kingdoms one in heaven one here on earth...

And then the timing of all this...when does all this “go down”...LOL...pun intended...

No mention of immortal souls.

yup...ONLY ONE is immortal...but that never stopped man making things up...otherwise known as idolatry...adding to the word...

Speaking of idols...that 3rd Temple...during a 1000 year reign here on earth...

What becomes of that thingy when the New Jerusalem comes down?...which has NO TEMPLE?...

New Heaven New Earth all promised which the shadows of Col 2:17 are STILL pointing to...for His people...

Again thanks for any responds...to raise TOL from the dead...LOL

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again clefty,

yup...start in the beginning...Spirit of Yah hovering...man created in His image/likeness NOT from His substance...but from the ground formed and breathed into...and then becoming alive...a living being...dust + Spirit = living soul...a delicate formula

You have made some interesting comments. I will only comment on a few. I agree that we are sustained by God’s Spirit, but I understand Genesis 2:7 is speaking about dust + air (breath) = living soul.

Created dependent on the tree of life...and NOT immortal...no part of him...

I understand the tree of life would impart eternal life, and thus Adam and Eve were not “created dependent on the tree of life”.

the question remains...is this our permanent home up there in heaven in those mansions...or are we not to come back HERE to a new earth...a physical land promised to us as well...

I am not sure if you are suggesting that we go to heaven and then come back here. For my part I do not accept that we go to heaven, but we are resurrected from the dust and inherit the land.

Speaking of idols...that 3rd Temple...during a 1000 year reign here on earth...

I understand that Isaiah 2:1-4 and Ezekiel 40-48 are speaking about the Third Temple.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[clefty]

Greetings again clefty, You have made some interesting comments. I will only comment on a few.

halleluYah

I agree that we are sustained by God’s Spirit, but I understand Genesis 2:7 is speaking about dust + air (breath) = living soul.

His breath is NOT Divine?

“The Spirit of Yah has made me, And the breath of the ALmighty gives me life.” Job 33:4
“All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life...” Gen 7:22
“By the word of Yah were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” Psalms 33:6
“...He breathed on them and said ‘Receive the Holy Spirit” John 20:22
“The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life giving spirit” 1 Cor 15:45

Adam was created with a purpose to tend the garden, have dominion of the earth and to NAME all that was created...

I like to think Adam’s first action was exactly that...HE INHALED...and in doing so the sound he made he NAMED HIS CREATOR...”YAAAHHHH”...

“Let everything that has breath praise Yah...” Psalms 150:6

Might that we “Rejoice always and pray without ceasing” 1 Thess 5:16-18

And if and when we overcome we will...forever...access the tree of life restored in the New Earth...Rev 22:2

I understand the tree of life would impart eternal life, and thus Adam and Eve were not “created dependent on the tree of life”.

and by “impart eternal life” you mean eat from it ONLY ONCE?

But obviously when access to it was denied and the path to it was prevented by the Cherubim with the light saber they began to die...or?

The location of the tree of life in the middle of the garden and its proximity to the test sample the tree of knowledge of good and evil ALSO IN THE MIDDLE of the garden made it the test...every time Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life the forbidden one was RIGHT THERE...finally Eve succumbed to her own deception...

I am not sure if you are suggesting that we go to heaven and then come back here.

I am suggesting exactly that...we are taken up caught up to be with Him..as He does NOT touch down...and go to SUKKOT with Him “that where I am you may be also” in TEMPORARY booths “mansions” as the earth lies DESOLATE is WHY Satan is bound no one to tempt...for a thousand years...

Yahushua did a mini version of that the day after His resurrection...went to the Father was approved as FIRST FRUITS and then came back to FINISH HIS MISSION...ON EARTH...our future permanent home...when New Jerusalem comes down AFTER the 1000 years desolate

Mark Matthew and Luke are quite clear that when the abomination is set up His return occurs...that abomination set up MAKES DESOLATE...is WHY it is called the abomination of desolation...it has NO LIFE...it does NOT establish an earthly reign but for 1000 years the earth lies in DESOLATION...

“For FALSE CHRISTS will arise and show great wonders so as to deceive...THEREFORE...’look He is in the desert (Israel) do NOT go out...or LOOK! He is in the inner chamber room (third temple) do NOT believe it” Matt 24:24-26

For my part I do not accept that we go to heaven, but we are resurrected from the dust and inherit the land.
I understand that Isaiah 2:1-4 and Ezekiel 40-48 are speaking about the Third Temple.

Kind regards
Trevor

ok...

But I am not sure where you have us going after being taken up into the clouds to be with Him...in His Father’s house...

or where the New Jerusalem without a temple will come down on...you know...settle down upon...land...as another temple would be standing in the way...

Is why its a NEW heaven and NEW earth...and My Holy mountain not a temple that every New Moon and Sabbath “ALL will come to worship before Me” Isaiah 66...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again clefty,

His breath is NOT Divine?

When a doctor smacks the rear of a newborn baby, and the baby starts to breathe, is the breath directly Divine, or part of the air supplied by God?

and by “impart eternal life” you mean eat from it ONLY ONCE?

Yes. I do not read the following as “continue to eat”.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV): And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
In the second reference, this is figurative to speak of being given eternal life.

I am suggesting exactly that...we are taken up caught up to be with Him..as He does NOT touch down...and go to SUKKOT with Him “that where I am you may be also” in TEMPORARY booths “mansions” as the earth lies DESOLATE is WHY Satan is bound no one to tempt...for a thousand years...

I believe the details of the prophets and the following:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The earth will not be desolate, but the Kingdom will be times of refreshing and restoration of all things.

Mark Matthew and Luke are quite clear that when the abomination is set up His return occurs...that abomination set up MAKES DESOLATE...is WHY it is called the abomination of desolation...it has NO LIFE...it does NOT establish an earthly reign but for 1000 years the earth lies in DESOLATION...

This is the most unusual view of the abomination that makes desolate that I have encountered.

But I am not sure where you have us going after being taken up into the clouds to be with Him...in His Father’s house...

You assume that the Father’s house is in heaven. I understand the clouds to be figurative language.

or where the New Jerusalem without a temple will come down on...you know...settle down upon...land...as another temple would be standing in the way...

I assume that you ignore Ezekiel chapters 38-39 and 40-48 and Zechariah 14.

Is why its a NEW heaven and NEW earth...and My Holy mountain not a temple that every New Moon and Sabbath “ALL will come to worship before Me” Isaiah 66...

I assume you disregard the new heaven and earth mentioned in Isaiah 65:17-25 and the details of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[clefty]

Greetings again clefty, When a doctor smacks the rear of a newborn baby, and the baby starts to breathe, is the breath directly Divine, or part of the air supplied by God?

The baby is already alive when it breathes to continue living...(a wonderful foreshadowing that we DO NOTHING to be saved/born again but DO work after to remain alive in this NEW LIFE...) justified by faith...with works...His works

That time He breathed into Adam the Spirit which is life contained the spark of life which is transmitted to every zygot...you know...conception...

Each of us contain Him and are SAVED from the NOTHINGNESS we are before our parent’s loved us into existence… (see?...again we did NOTHING but their love... their faith brought us into the world)

realizing that and living accordingly is the rest of it...learning to love...AS HE DID fulfills all of it...

focus more on Him within you already...is why life is SACRED and its MARRIAGE…

and then live and love like it...as He did...and asked us to...

Yes. I do not read the following as “continue to eat”.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV): And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

so Adam and Eve had not yet eaten of the tree of life?

Had it been to eat only once and live eternally...then being separated from it wouldn’t matter...

I have it as they had “become like one of Us” having eaten of it ..and thus were prevented a REFRESHING of the Tree of Life...its supply of life eternity

Rev 22:2 has the tree yielding 12 fruits...each fruit per month? Why? if only to be eaten once?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
In the second reference, this is figurative to speak of being given eternal life.

ok...interesting what people keep as figurative vs literal...scary too as it has implications...political and economic...

I believe the details of the prophets and the following:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The earth will not be desolate, but the Kingdom will be times of refreshing and restoration of all things.

please note the time of refreshing is after the repent convert and sins blotted out but BEFORE He shall send Christ...that Refreshing is a lifestyle which includes the Sabbath which even the Creator rested on and was refreshed Ex 31:17 IRONIC that this is here being told to former slaves freed from Egypt and being refreshed when THIS ekklesia was in the OT wilderness as per Stephen Acts 7:38

Peter was teaching Acts 3 on Solomon’s porch a place for all nations women even...and he had just healed a man lame from birth...who was asking for TEMPORAL VALUE...but Peter gave him Yahushua and His REFRESHMENT...and healing of the Nations...like the tree of life...and the Sabbath...made for man...even before the fall...

This is the most unusual view of the abomination that makes desolate that I have encountered.

LOL...It’s out there...but in scripture...

You assume that the Father’s house is in heaven. I understand the clouds to be figurative language.

the Father is IMMORTAL SPIRIT and NEEDS NO HOUSE...what the ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN did to reach us mortals in time and space is enough to have me FOLLOW my creator and LIVE AS HE CREATED ME to live...IN HIS IMAGE...as He asked of me...thus I too need no temple...

I assume that you ignore Ezekiel chapters 38-39 and 40-48

Ezekiel’s temple was rejected for Cyrus’ and having murdered her bridegroom when He came to call her back she suspended their marriage vows as “death did them part”...He now looks for a new bride...

Or would you have Him have two?

and Zechariah 14.

yes still to come...much further down the timeline...shadows of good things to come...Col 2:17

I assume you disregard the new heaven and earth mentioned in Isaiah 65:17-25 and the details of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8.

nope...in fact Isaiah states clearly that “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remains before me” and it shall FINALLY “come to pass from one new moon to new moon from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL shall come worship” Is 66:22-23

Note in this new heavens and new earth since 65:17 has NO TEMPLE and even sacrifices are abominable 66:3

Isaiah concurs with John's Rev 21:22 having NO TEMPLE as at this time because all IS RESTORED and REFRESHED

as Peter taught “since the world began” when at that time it TOO had both the tree of life and the Sabbath...but NO TEMPLE...

so it ends like it began...prior the fall...

Please recall we are on a detour of sin...its blood sacrifices... kings... and temples all PLAN B...He didn’t even want a temple David did...


HalleluYah...

 

[beloved57]

Greetings again clefty, You have made some interesting comments. I will only comment on a few. I agree that we are sustained by God’s Spirit, but I understand Genesis 2:7 is speaking about dust + air (breath) = living soul.
I understand the tree of life would impart eternal life, and thus Adam and Eve were not “created dependent on the tree of life”.
I am not sure if you are suggesting that we go to heaven and then come back here. For my part I do not accept that we go to heaven, but we are resurrected from the dust and inherit the land.
I understand that Isaiah 2:1-4 and Ezekiel 40-48 are speaking about the Third Temple.

Kind regards
Trevor

The final and glorious Temple of God is The Church of Christ. Paul writes by inspiration 1 Cor 3:16-17

<sup>16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.</sup>

 

[Nanja]

The final and glorious Temple of God is The Church of Christ. Paul writes by inspiration 1 Cor 3:16-17

<sup>16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.</sup>

^{Amen Brother, the Temple that the Man The Branch [Christ Jesus] the Greater David shall build Zech. 6:12-13, and the Church He promised to build are one and the same!}

 

[beloved57]

Amen Brother, the Temple that the Man The Branch [Christ Jesus] the Greater David shall build Zech. 6:12-13, and the Church He promised to build are one and the same!

Exactly Sister!

 

[clefty]

The final and glorious Temple of God is The Church of Christ. Paul writes by inspiration 1 Cor 3:16-17

<sup>16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.</sup>

<sup>“IF” indeed...But you would think it was a done deal...all predetermined...no conditions at all...As if some are to become the temple merely to defile it...

Verse 18 “Let no one deceive himself...” Unless you were supposed to as planned?</sup>

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again clefty, beloved57 and Nanja,

The baby is already alive when it breathes to continue living..

Did God breathe the breath of life into the nostrils of all the original animals, or was the process different with them?

so Adam and Eve had not yet eaten of the tree of life?

That is how I understand this.

I have it as they had “become like one of Us” having eaten of it ..

Adam and Eve had “become like one of us” in the knowledge of good and evil. No mention of eating the tree of life.

ok...interesting what people keep as figurative vs literal...scary too as it has implications ... political and economic...

When Jesus returns he is going to impart eternal life to the faithful, not give them a piece of fruit from a tree.

please note the time of refreshing is after the repent convert and sins blotted out but BEFORE He shall send Christ...

I understand Acts 3:19-21 is speaking about the return of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth Daniel 2:35,44, Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14.

LOL...It’s out there...but in scripture...

We need to establish that initially the abomination that made desolate in AD70 was the Roman armies. A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 establishes this. This is a pattern also for the latter days.

the Father is IMMORTAL SPIRIT and NEEDS NO HOUSE...what the ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN did to reach us mortals in time and space is enough to have me FOLLOW my creator and LIVE AS HE CREATED ME to live...IN HIS IMAGE...as He asked of me...thus I too need no temple...

The final and glorious Temple of God is The Church of Christ. Paul writes by inspiration 1 Cor 3:16-17 ¹⁶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? ¹⁷ If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Amen Brother, the Temple that the Man The Branch [Christ Jesus] the Greater David shall build Zech. 6:12-13, and the Church He promised to build are one and the same!

Jesus is speaking of the spiritual house in John 14:1, made up of believers Hebrews 3:1-6.

Ezekiel’s temple was rejected for Cyrus’ and having murdered her bridegroom when He came to call her back she suspended their marriage vows as “death did them part”...He now looks for a new bride...

Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38, 39, 40-48 and Zechariah all speak of a time of trouble and warfare that has not yet occurred, then the intervention by God, and the process of transformation into the Kingdom of God upon the earth, with Jerusalem as the Throne of David and with a new Temple built for the 1000 years.

yes still to come...much further down the timeline...shadows of good things to come.

Zechariah 14 cannot fit into your picture of a destroyed or burnt earth. The transition is immediately after the warfare of Zechariah 14:2, and Jesus returns and his feet stand on the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11. The return of the Jews to the Land, the present problems relating to Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank all indicate that time depicted in these prophecies, and the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth is near at hand.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[clefty]

Greetings again clefty, beloved57 and Nanja, Did God breathe the breath of life into the nostrils of all the original animals, or was the process different with them?

He spoke and it was so...

prolly why He didn’t die to save them...but maybe you think they go to heaven too?

Or do they all resurrect to live in the kingdom here...gonna be crowded...

That is how I understand this.

ok

Adam and Eve had “become like one of us” in the knowledge of good and evil. No mention of eating the tree of life.

but you do note that eating of the tree was the condition for living forever...”lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever”—-

thus they are not created to live eternally on their own...but that they eat...as prevented from doing so they died...

When Jesus returns he is going to impart eternal life to the faithful, not give them a piece of fruit from a tree.

yes they will put on immortality as they are STILL not created eternal...and well why would the tree of life in the New Jerusalem bare 12 differing fruit...one each month? To be pretty? Its leaves for the healing of nations...

I understand Acts 3:19-21 is speaking about the return of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth

yes you said that already...I merely pointed out that verse 19 happens BEFORE verse 20 and 21

In verse 19 you have a time for: repentance, and conversion, and sins blotted out, AND refreshing...

In verse 20 that He may THEN send Jesus Christ who was preached BEFORE this time of repentance conversion blotting out of sins and refreshment

In verse 21 but which heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of ALL things...since the WORLD BEGAN

So the refreshing time comes BEFORE He is sent...certainly before the restoration of ALL things time...since He remains received in heaven...

Is why when He comes to take us “where I am ye may be also” He receives us to Him not joins us down here...His feet do NOT touch the ground He sits on His throne we rise to meet the Lord in the air...heaven must still receive Him...and NOW receive the faithful...until the time of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS...as spoken of since the world began...

No temple or kingdom when the world began...Notice that?

Remember when He said don’t touch cling delay me I must see my Father? Well then He came back...so too will we GO UP...to come down dressed as a bride...you know the city...coming down...not built by man

Daniel 2:35

oh my...so this kingdom man builds on earth with its temple man builds on earth is the STONE FROM HEAVEN? Which SMASHES EVERYTHING until no trace is found...

44

who sets up this kingdom...zionists are GOD? Really? Certainly NOT! Yah sets it up as it is NOT to be destroyed or left to other people but consumes all other kingdoms and stands forever...not just 1000 years

Isaiah 2:1-4,

so NOT a stone from heaven SMASHING until no trace is found and all kingdoms consumed but a mountain...no temple...and ALL nations shall flow to it...in the latter days...judgement day...

Zechariah 14.

yes the Day of the Lord is coming...in that day...no longer utter destruction but safely inhabited...on a plain...still no temple...in that day

We need to establish that initially the abomination that made desolate in AD70 was the Roman armies. A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 establishes this.

sure...but nothing like “unless the days were shortened no flesh would be saved”...A.D.70 foreshadows the tribulations leading up to His return...and final last battle when Satan/sin and death are finally annihilated...

This is a pattern also for the latter days.

right...with Rome again setting up the desolation...the irony

BTW-Pray your flight not break the Sabbath still being kept...Matt 24:20 Rome hates the Sabbath...

Jesus is speaking of the spiritual house in John 14:1, made up of believers Hebrews 3:1-6.

as He needs NO physical temple and didn’t even want the first one...

Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38, 39, 40-48 and Zechariah all speak of a time of trouble and warfare that has not yet occurred,

and?

then the intervention by God,

seems like man is doing all of it claiming He needs a temple...even some Torah true Jews cry “APOSTACY” but man his traditions ya dig?

the process of transformation into the Kingdom of God upon the earth, with Jerusalem as the Throne of David and with a new Temple built for the 1000 years.

right yes yes...zionists are succeeding with much money and blood from those on crusade deceived into thinking He needs that temple...His kingdom has NO TEMPLE and lasts forever not just 1000 years...what does happen to this Zionist temple after the 1000 years?...gets crushed by the new city coming down?

Zechariah 14 cannot fit into your picture of a destroyed or burnt earth. The transition is immediately after the warfare of Zechariah 14:2, and Jesus returns and his feet stand on the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11.

a first resurrection means it is NOT the only one...there is a second...Satan takes these nations to fight after he is released his DAY of judgement which is 1000years bound...while the earth is desolate...

You are confused as the disciples were “is this when the glory of Israel will be restored” wishing to defeat Rome...more concerned for temporal power than spiritual purity and the restoration of ALL things...

The return of the Jews to the Land, the present problems relating to Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank all indicate that time depicted in these prophecies, and the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth is near at hand.

Kind regards
Trevor

right ok then...support this abomination of desolation about to be set up...

make void what was done on the cross...allowing Jews another path another way by another gospel...

but He needs no temple...they need His Son

And as some of Israel stood aside as the golden calf was made...I stand with them...

 

[beloved57]

Greetings again clefty, beloved57 and Nanja, Did God breathe the breath of life into the nostrils of all the original animals, or was the process different with them?
That is how I understand this.
Adam and Eve had “become like one of us” in the knowledge of good and evil. No mention of eating the tree of life.
When Jesus returns he is going to impart eternal life to the faithful, not give them a piece of fruit from a tree.
I understand Acts 3:19-21 is speaking about the return of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth Daniel 2:35,44, Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14.
We need to establish that initially the abomination that made desolate in AD70 was the Roman armies. A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 establishes this. This is a pattern also for the latter days.


Jesus is speaking of the spiritual house in John 14:1, made up of believers Hebrews 3:1-6.
Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38, 39, 40-48 and Zechariah all speak of a time of trouble and warfare that has not yet occurred, then the intervention by God, and the process of transformation into the Kingdom of God upon the earth, with Jerusalem as the Throne of David and with a new Temple built for the 1000 years.
Zechariah 14 cannot fit into your picture of a destroyed or burnt earth. The transition is immediately after the warfare of Zechariah 14:2, and Jesus returns and his feet stand on the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11. The return of the Jews to the Land, the present problems relating to Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank all indicate that time depicted in these prophecies, and the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth is near at hand.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Temple of God is spiritual.

 

[DAN P]

The Temple of God is spiritual.

Hi and where does it say the TEMPLE is spiritual ?

dan p