Genes are my substance. And, you still have not explained why genetic material can be used to state how closely related two humans are but not two species.
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Why are Christians embracing Evolution?
- Thread starter Hobie
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Right Divider
Body part
Genes to not prove your "story".
Because there is no proof that one type of creature can "evolve" into another.
Similarity is just that, similarity.
I believe that similarity is based on common design by the same Designer; you believe that similarity indicates common ancestry.
Neither one of us has "absolute proof". We both interpret the data based on our preferred paradigms.
I believe that my paradigm more naturally supports the data.
DLH
Member
I would like to see you try. According to the most accurate Bible chronology I can find Adam was created in 4026 BCE and the flood began in 2370.
Go! What you have to do is take the chronology from Adam's creation back to the creation of the earth. The Jehovah's Witnesses tried that by assigning specific times to each creative day and then making the assumption that the seventh day, God's day of rest, would be - I think it was 1975? They don't do that anymore.
Many people don't realize how the timeline of events in the Bible can be, not only calculated but also accurately compared to secular history - as potentially erroneous as that can be, but also through comparisons with extremely reliable astronomical charts of the past. Just from Genesis 5:1-29; 7:6 we can see a period of 1, 656 years, from the creation of Adam to the flood, by adding the ages and births of the people mentioned in those verses.
For example - From Adam's creation to the birth of Seth was 130 years; from then to the birth of Enosh was 105 years; from then to the birth of Kenan was 90 years; from then to the birth of Mahalalel was 70 years: from then to the birth of Jared was 65 years; from then to the birth of Enoch was 162 years; from then to the birth of Methuselah was 65 years; from then to the birth of Lamech was 187 years; from then to the birth of Noah was 182 years; and from then to the Flood was 600 years. A total of 1,656 years.
The Bible's meticulous references to secular historical dates, such as Luke's writings, allows a student of the Bible to pick a date agreed upon by secular history, such as 29 C.E. or 539 B.C.E. and count from Adam to the present day.
BUT
You have no chronology prior to Adam, you have no astronomical charts - you don't even have the notoruiously inaccurate secular history to compare it with. All you have is scientific conjecture, speculation and theory.
Don't know. Scripture? Michael, the angels and the spiritual heavens were created prior to the physical heavens. They aren't the same. What were they made of? Genesis 1:1 is talking about the physical heavens and earth.
The Law of Thermodynamics was established when? You can't explain mechanical flight until you have it. Science scoffed at it some time after man was in the sky.
It sounds to me like you are trying to incorporate the science of men into the word of God which would be fine if you were to establish they were compatible. There is a giant chasm in your attempt as far as I can tell.
For clarification, earth is dirt. Soil. The Earth is the planet Earth.
Maybe I will have time to whittle this away gradually, I don't know. I will certainly look it over but I have other responses and a website to build.
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So, logically you must also believe, for example, a rape victim cannot use DNA from a family member of a rapist as evidence to support recovery from the estate of missing deceased rapist, because similarity is just similarity.
DLH
Member
Angels are created beings. Actually, angel means messenger. There are more spirit beings than angels, but I digress. Angels have not always existed, obviously. They existed in the spiritual heavens prior to the creation of the physical heavens, which is obvious by the scripture I gave in which they applaud the creation of the physical heavens.
Well, that was easy. Fair enough, I suppose.
Right Divider
Body part
Again, we KNOW that BOTH the victim and the rapist are BOTH HUMANS.
Your point is pointless.
Right Divider
Body part
So the creation began before the creation?
The "heavens" where angels "live" is a created place... i.e., part of the creation referred to in Genesis 1:1
If you cannot tell why "morning and evening" refers to the rotation of the earth... there is no hope of me explaining it to you.
Again, no we do not. When looking at trace DNA, we do not know at the outset if it is human DNA. We can find out by examining it.
Right Divider
Body part
Either way... it does NOT support your story.
DLH
Member
Who was the master worker of Proverbs 8:22-31? (Colossians 1:15-16; Genesis 1:26; 3:21)
[Laughs] No, no, no! You want me to do all the work which I've already done. I've shown where the Hebrew word yohm is used, how the English word day is used in application of various times from a few hours to time indefinite, including how it is used as such in the Creation account. I've asked how long light takes to travel from a distant star to here. I've explained how I think that morning and evening are metaphoric and the Hebrew perfect state in Genesis 1:1 says the creation was complete in that point of the narrative and where the over 40 occurrences of the imperfect state indicate action in progress, confirming that with the different use of the Hebrew words for light in a general sense and the source of light.
Bara, asah, ohr and maohr.
You have the universe being created without light for grass to grow and light traveling from galaxy GN-z11 32.1 billion light years away taking about 6,000 years instead of 13.4 billion years to reach the Hubble Space telescope.
We currently divide the day into just two parts? Morning and evening? I don't think so. How many parts did the ancient Hebrews divide their days into?
When was the sabbath to be observed? From evening to evening. What was in between?
1. The morning twilight (morning darkness) before the daylight; 1 Samuel 30:17
2. The dawn; Job 3:9
3. The morning; Genesis 24:54
4. Noon or midday; Deuteronomy 28:29; 1 Kings 18:27
5. The sunset; Joshua 8:29
6. The evening twilight (evening darkness); 2 Kings 7:7
So, Morning twilight, dawn, morning, noon, sunset, and evening twilight.
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Right Divider
Body part
Proverbs 8 refers to God's wisdom and understanding (i.e., knowledge).
Referring to "morning and evening" clearly shows that it's talking about an ordinary day and not some metaphorical use of the word.
You make so many assumptions that you cannot prove in any way. You have decided what the text "should mean" instead of just allowing it to mean what it says.
"morning and evening" refer to two parts of the day (related to its rotation). That does not exclude there being other parts of the day. That is completely irrelevant. "Morning and evening" are enough to show that it is talking about an ordinary day.
Irrelevant.
I can see why you believe like a JW.
DLH
Member
....and?
So if I work for you and I tell you that I worked from morning until evening you will pay me for a 24 hour shift?
No, you're not thinking about what you are saying without using the Bible because the traditions of men obstruct your view.
It refers to the END of the day, not the whole day.
Long pressing and highlighting text doesn't bring up an option to quote?
As above, "evening and morning" is saying that the day is ending, and then after a new day begins.
Heavens came before earth, according to Genesis 1:1. Is it so inconceivable that between God creating the heavens and creating the earth, that he created the angels to exist in the heavens, and then they watched him lay the foundations of the earth?
Grab a flashlight and a soccer or basketball. Put a small piece of tape on the equator of the ball, point a flashlight at the ball, and rotate the ball.
Follow the tape, from its "daytime" to the evening, to the morning, to the daytime.
"And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."
There's no such thing as "BCE."
It's BC (Before Christ) and AD (anno domini, "In the Year of our Lord")
"BCE" is a made up term made up by atheists to try to avoid referencing Christ.
Both wrong.
The date of the beginning of the Flood, to within ±100 years:
The scientific answer:
The Biblical answer:
What chronology? Adam is the first man. Just go back by five days.
I have no idea what you're talking about here... But here you go:
Again, there's no such thing as the "common era."
Or, just use the references I provided above.
Incorrect.
We base the date of the flood ±100 years on clocklike comets, to achieve a date of 3290 B.C. ±100 years.
Then from there, based on other things in the Bible and History mentioned in the above link, we arrive at a date for 5532 B.C. ±100 years, with an age of the earth at 7500 ±100 years.
Genesis 1.
Saying it doesn't make it so, and the most the Bible says about their creation is that they were made before God laid the foundation of the earth. Anything beyond that is speculation, @DLH and @Right Divider.
Because you say so?
Satan was physical when he tempted Eve.
The Bible doesn't say.
On what basis do you assert that spiritual beings cannot exist in a physical universe?
I'm not talking about when the law was discovered, DLH. I'm talking about when the law was established. It was established at creation, at the latest.
And now you're calling into question the first law of thermodynamics.
Is that where you would like to take this?
Explain.
And?
1:1 God created "the heavens and the earth."
1:6-8 God made a firmament in the midst of the waters, and called the firmament "Heaven." The firmament called Heaven is the granite crust of the earth.
1:9-10 God gathered the waters into one place and caused dry land to appear. He called the dry land "Earth."
No rush.
You have not established this.
No such scripture.
Rather, what it says is that they were there when God laid the foundations of the earth, determined its measurements, stretched the measuring line upon it, laid its cornerstone.
This is not talking about the physical heavens, no matter how you much you insist, because He literally says: "foundations of the earth."
The earth is not the heavens.
Indeed.
All of which I addressed in my main post directed to you.
Addressed in my post.
No one (apart from maybe Leatherneck) has said this.
Irrelevant.
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Still missing the point. Yes, you would not get paid for 24 hours worth of work. But the fact that you worked from morning to evening shows a rotation of the earth. Just like "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day."
This coming from someone who seems to have made up much of his theology...
It is entirely clear that the bible teaches that the heavens, the earth and everything else was created in six days. It says so EXPLICITLY...
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....
Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth....
DLH
Member
That's an understandable mistake. The Bible sometimes says things that are not true, for example, snakes do not talk. The snake didn't talk. The text does say the snake talked. Because Eve thought it talked. Because Satan tricked her into thinking it talked. It was Satan talking, using the snake as a sort of puppet. The same with Balaam's ass. It appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor; the cowardly scouts sent out came back and said the Nephilim were in the land. Both untrue. Sometimes the Bible even gives details of earlier events using references that didn't exist at that time. For example, at Genesis 3:24 the cherubs use a flaming blade of a sword to prevent Adam and Eve from returning. No such thing (sword) existed. At Genesis 2:10-14 the geographical details of Eden are given with reference to one river "to the East of Assyria" when Assyria certainly didn't exist then. But it was familiar to the reader who was reading it much later.
This is why you have to know the entire Bible before you start hacking at it like a blind woodsman.
The Bible seems to say that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days, but it doesn't. It says that the heavens and earth were created and then there were six periods of time where it was being prepared for habitation. That's the complicated argument I've presented which hasn't been successfully refuted. But since no one is going to seriously tackle that what someone needs to do is address what exactly a day is. Does the Bible present the Hebrew word yohm as strictly applying to a literal 24 hours and does the English term day do the same. The answer I've demonstrated is no.
Repeating that it does isn't an argument. Supporting it with scripture isn't even an argument until you establish that they only apply to a literal 24 hours. You can't. Because they don't.
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DLH
Member
The rotation of the earth isn't in question. The earth doesn't stop rotating. The question is, does it rotate 360° once in 23 hours and 56 minutes or does it rotate once in the average 8 hour workday, which is from morning to evening. Your reasoning is clouded by traditional and faulty doctrine.
It doesn't matter if I made it up or Patrick from Sponge Bob Square Pants made it up. The question is, is it accurate? Which can be tested. So test it.
If you want to claim that the Bible cannot mean what it plainly says, you have to give good reason.
We claim that the Bible means more than it says when talking about the serpent in the garden. For example, we point to Paul's teaching to show that it was actually the devil talking to Eve, portrayed for whatever reason as a snake.
So we have good reason for a not strictly literal reading in that case.
What is a good reason that "six days" does not mean what it plainly says? Or means more than it plainly says.
Declaring that yohm might not mean a 24 hour period isn't a good reason.
1. It can mean a 24-hour period.
2. Genesis 1 teaches "evening and morning."
DLH
Member
That's actually a very good point. I've never heard that before, and that doesn't happen often, but it still does nothing to make the point. The point being made, I believe, is that the morning and the evening allegedly constitute a literal day. They don't. What you seem to be saying is closer to the morning and evening being metaphorical applications as I mentioned above. Somewhere.
Not necessarily. They are listed that way probably because that is the order they were created, which certainly makes more sense. But there are a spiritual heavens and a physical heavens.
Not at all. But the Bible distinguishes between a spiritual heavens and a physical heavens. Both were created through the master worker (Michael/Jesus). In the beginning is only the beginning of the creation from the topical perspective of mankind. The physical heavens.
When was Jesus born? When did he become the official messiah? BC and AD come from the Easter table. In the alluvial plains near the ancient city Ur, about the time of Abraham, the worshippers of Astarte, the fertility goddess, dressed select children in their finest and set fire to them. Sacrificing them to fire for the goddess. Then they colored eggs, made bread in the shape of a cross, a phallic symbol of fertility of Astarte that originated with the god Tammuz mentioned in the 8th chapter of Ezekiel. Tammuz was the Sumerian King Dumuzi. Nimrod. His symbol was the filthy idol, as the Bible calls it. We know it as the cross. The cross, hot cross buns, rabbit and eggs. Found painted on ancient earns with the charred remains of children inside. Easter. I'm not impressed.
Why do I prefer BCE and CE? Because Jesus was probably born in October of 2 CE and not baptized until 29 CE. The terms BC and AD have more to do with the shoot of Tammuz than Christ.
I wish I had time to comb through all of those links. Your own explanation is insufficient to say the least. From my understanding you are suggesting that Adam was created 7,600 years and six days ago? C'mon.
Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please?
I didn't.
Actually, I would leave it out because it isn't applicable, you can't take it beyond the point in which the law of thermodynamics could have been established. You can say energy can't be created, like a power plant would, but you can't say that a.) Jehovah, the creator of the universe, didn't create energy in the first place, and b.) it can be stated with any degree of certainty that the Bible was dependent or not upon such a law in the first place. The point is moot.
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