ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?
- Thread starter Lucky
- Start date
Christimas is what you make it. OMEGA you make Christmas out to be a pagan holiday and therefore God hates your version of Christmas.
Again... it appears that it is you who has the problem.
And again we see that those that think Christmas is forbidden attempt to convince the rest of us that skipping Christmas is a "good work". :nono:
Omega, if this is your criterion for whether or not you participate or observe things in our culture, you're going to live a miserable life. The days of the week are pagan. The names of the months are pagan. Many of the words we use are pagan, even words used to translate our English Bibles. How many of the products we use support pagan organizations and companies and people? Paul wasn't bothered by the presence of paganism. He knew meat sacrificed to idols was no big deal.
The reason Paul prohibits the celebration of religious holidays has nothing to do with a fear of paganism or pagan influence, or legalism for that matter (which is the typical protest I get from well-meaning Christians). Rather, it is because the observance of anything religiously ritualistic, ceremonial, or symbolic upsets the created order.
The Body of Christ has a heavenly hope, that is, above the earth and above the angelic realm. That means religious holydays and ceremonies, which were characteristically and distinctly kingdom-related (Israel and Gentile nations), are not to be observed by members of the Body of Christ. The angelic realm functioned in a mediatory role between the kingdom believers and God. The chasm between earth and heaven was mediated by the angels.
There is no such chasm between the members of the Body of Christ and God. The holy Spirit dwells within each of us and our "temple" (i.e. where we meet with God) is not a function of a physical place or a special time as it was with Israel and the nations.
Since the Body of Christ does not share Israel's earthly hope, there is no need for angelic mediation, which is why there is no angelic ministry today. The Body of Christ sits with Christ upon the Father's throne, above principalities and powers (Eph 1:20 2:6) and is administratively superior to the angels (1Co 6:3 Eph 3:10). For members of the Body of Christ to participate in religious ceremony, ritual, and holydays is tantamount to angel worship, which is forbidden for the Body of Christ (Col 2:8-23).
See the following links for more information:
Having now read the rest of this thread, it appears that "legalism" needs to be defined. Do we agree that biblical proscriptions such as "Do not murder" and "Do not blaspheme" are not legalisms?
If so, can we also agree that if it can be demonstrated that the Bible prohibits the observance of religious holidays, that shunning ChristMass is not legalism? Can you at least agree with that hypothetically?
If so, can we also agree that if it can be demonstrated that the Bible prohibits the observance of religious holidays, that shunning ChristMass is not legalism? Can you at least agree with that hypothetically?
LightSon
New member
Time for clear thinking. You are correct that we are not required to partake, but you are wrong to say we "should not partake of religious holidays." The former does not lead logically to the latter. For that you will have to make your case.
Let me offer this verse, in case it hasn't been offered already.
Col. 2:16. "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."
So, if you choose not to participate, that is your affair. But if I choose to participate, please do not invoke Paul, since you have no basis to do so.
LightSon, how do you obey Paul when he says "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."? How, in practical terms, do you stop someone from judging (regulating) your behavior concerning these things?
LightSon
New member
Is this a trap? You are often laying traps. And when someone asks you a direct question, you tend not to answer directly. I think I've figured out why. Because you are always laying traps, you project onto others and presume they are laying a trap for you.
How do I let anybody "judge" me? It is a matter of giving credence to their discernment. When a brother comes to me in humility and with the Word and is seeking to restore me, I have an obligation to "let them judge me."
But when someone comes to me with a haughty spirit or with a bogus argument, like for example, "hey man, don't celebrate the coming of Messiah, because it violates scripture," then on the authority of Paul I can say "I'm not going to let your judgment stand." Alternately, I might accuse them of being a legalist, a much honored tactic around here.
Jim.... maybe you could comment on the following.... What do you think of the distinction I am making in that choosing not to celebrate holidays is one thing but being told they are forbidden is legalistic.
Legalism, Not legalism
Holidays good...
Legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because it is a good work."
NOT legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because they are fun and a good opportunity to fellowship and preach the gospel. Yet I certainly wouldn't have to celebrate holidays if I didn't want to."
Holidays bad...
Legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because Christians are forbidden to celebrate holidays."
NOT legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because I choose not to but I certainly could if I wanted to."
--------------------
And also maybe you could comment on the following I asked of Christine regarding the article she referenced on your website....
If Paul says "let no man judge you in holidays" why on earth should Christine let some man tell her that holidays are forbidden?
Thanks in advance for your time.
Legalism, Not legalism
Holidays good...
Legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because it is a good work."
NOT legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because they are fun and a good opportunity to fellowship and preach the gospel. Yet I certainly wouldn't have to celebrate holidays if I didn't want to."
Holidays bad...
Legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because Christians are forbidden to celebrate holidays."
NOT legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because I choose not to but I certainly could if I wanted to."
--------------------
And also maybe you could comment on the following I asked of Christine regarding the article she referenced on your website....
If Paul says "let no man judge you in holidays" why on earth should Christine let some man tell her that holidays are forbidden?
Thanks in advance for your time.
OMEGA
New member
GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
LOVE NOT THE WORLD NOR THE THINGS OF THE WORLD
THE WHOLE WORLD LIES IN WICKEDNESS.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Re 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
:down:
GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
LOVE NOT THE WORLD NOR THE THINGS OF THE WORLD
THE WHOLE WORLD LIES IN WICKEDNESS.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Re 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
:down:
Re: GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
Re: GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
Re: GOD HATES CHRISTMAS
If someone came on here and said they loved Christmas MORE than Jesus you might have a good point. But since that isn't the case.... you don't make a very good point. BZZZZZZZZZZZ try again.
At my house, we celebrate all days with thanks to God. Christmas is just another day. If we want to enjoy it with a nice dinner or presents or pretty lights, who cares? 
Amen, Nori!:thumb:
julie21
New member
If Jim Hilston and his family do not wish to celebrate Christmas for the reasons he states he believes are bonafide, I really do not care, as my family and friends will be celebrating due to the beliefs that we share...that is our celebrating the birth of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
The Pauline doctrine is as with the rest of the bible God-breathed, but as with all of it is open to varying interpretation by many.
Jim's interpretation is his and ours is ours...the majority view so far is never the 'twain to meet' on this point.
Have a great Christmas...or non-Christmas...whichever is the case for you.
The Pauline doctrine is as with the rest of the bible God-breathed, but as with all of it is open to varying interpretation by many.
Jim's interpretation is his and ours is ours...the majority view so far is never the 'twain to meet' on this point.
Have a great Christmas...or non-Christmas...whichever is the case for you.
Celebrating Christmas.
I am thankful for the Risen Savior every day. I celebrate being Christian every day. My Christian friends and neighbors have a wonderful time at Christmas. I enjoy that along with them.
Being a student of scripture and having done the math, I know that Our Lord the Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles and not on December 25th. HOWEVER, I follow Paul also who says:
Rom 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Soooooooo, if my Christian friends and neighbors want to think and believe they are celebrating Jesus' birthday, who am I to argue? Who am I to go grinchy on them? Ain't gonna do it. Gonna share in their joy and faith.
I am thankful for the Risen Savior every day. I celebrate being Christian every day. My Christian friends and neighbors have a wonderful time at Christmas. I enjoy that along with them.
Being a student of scripture and having done the math, I know that Our Lord the Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles and not on December 25th. HOWEVER, I follow Paul also who says:
Rom 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Soooooooo, if my Christian friends and neighbors want to think and believe they are celebrating Jesus' birthday, who am I to argue? Who am I to go grinchy on them? Ain't gonna do it. Gonna share in their joy and faith.
I would agree with that statement except for there is one main bone of contention here which is this....
If Jim and Christine and anyone else stated they didn't want to celebrate Christmas because they chose not to that would be one thing, however....
Jim's article which Christine pointed to when explaining why she doesn't celebrate Christmas states...
I think there is a huge distinction between choosing not to celebrate holidays AND being told holidays are forbidden.
Not to mention it was Paul himself who said...
Five thumbs up! :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: Great post!
The only way to stop someone from judging (krino, distinguishing, regulating, esteeming) you according to religious holidays is to abstain from them. Even if this verse were absent, the context is emphatic.
That's not what Paul is talking about. Paul warns the Colossians to beware of the beguiling philosophy and vain deceit of religious ceremony and ritual, the traditions of men, and the Jewish rites ("rudiments/elements of this order" Col 2:8). Paul says that the members of the Body of Christ are not subject to the angelic authority that governs ceremonial/religious ritual observances, stating emphatically that we are complete in Christ, who is the head over the angelic realm (Col 2:9,10). Christ put off, in behalf of the Body of Christ (not for Israel, who were still under religious ceremony), the angelic authority and declared this openly, demonstrating the triumph of His sacrifice in securing the Body of Christ above principalities and powers, and therefore, above all religious ritual (Col 2:14,15). Christ has freed us from religious rituals, ceremonies and holidays. To do them again is to put ourselves under angels, to dishonor the created order and to enslaves our selves to those very things from which He died to free us.
So when Paul, in the next verses, says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ," his point cannot be missed. He is not merely saying "Don't give creedance to anyone's discernment regarding holidays." He is prohibiting their observance entirely. Those who celebrate religious holidays have been beguiled by the philosophy and vain deceit of reliigous ceremony, symbolism and ritualism and have submitted themselves to angels. See the very next verse:
"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, ..."
Paul says that this is tantamount to denying Christ as Head, the very title that places Him, and by extension, the Body of Christ, above the principalities and powers (angels, see Col 2:9,10). Paul says that celebrating religious holidays amounts to:
"... not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God." (Col 2:19)
Paul then, again, states that these religious observances are those things we are dead to, if we are in Christ:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, ..." (Col 2:20).
He then asks, if that is true, if indeed you are dead to these things in Christ, why do them?
"... why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:23).
This is not optional. This is not a matter of preference. This is a glaring and emphatic prohibition.
Consider his similar proscriptions to the Galatians. He refers to their pre-Body days, "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world (Gal 4:3)" This is the same phrase we see in Colossians: Rudiments of this order, namely, the religious observances of this world. Paul refers to the pre-Body time when they were subject to the angelic realm, "when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods." The angelic realm, although they are not gods by nature, are nonetheless gods by appointment, whether demonic or holy. Paul says elsewhere that there are gods many and lords many, both in heaven and on earth (angels and demons), but for the Body of Christ, there is one God, the Father (1Co 8:4-6 Eph 4:4-6).
In Galatians, Paul continues, this time chiding them for being snuckered back to the things they were delivered from: "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:9)" Paul is equating Jewish religious ritual with pagan religious ritual, for there is no difference for a member of the Body of Christ, whether you celebrate Passover, Mithraic communion, or Christmas, these are the "weak and beggarly elements (same word as above: rudiments) ... Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid [for] you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. (Gal 4:10,11)."
How can it be any more clear? Do not observe religious days, months or times. Do not submit to the rudiments of religious ceremony, symbolism or ritual. The Body of Christ is above these angelically (or demonically) mediated observances and practices.
Someone earlier (or in another thread) mentioned that ChristMass trees are OK because Paul said it was OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols. But Paul was not sanctioning participation in a pagan sacrificial rite. That's a major difference. The Pauline equivalent would be burning a pine tree for heat that was used for ChristMass celebration; that doesn't mean Paul is sanctioning ChristMass anymore than he was sanctioning the observance of pagan sacrificial rites.
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