beloved57
Well-known member
If you don't believe that Calvinism is the Gospel, you don't believe the Gospel of God's Grace and are a unbeliever !
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Theology Club: circumcised vs uncircumcised
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If you don't believe that Calvinism is the Gospel, you don't believe the Gospel of God's Grace and are a unbeliever !
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you who is running and hiding from John 20:31 so if anyone is an unbeliever it is you and not me!
NO!
You don't believe that life comes as a result of believing, do you? Calvinism teaches that regeneration or the receiving of life PRECEDES faith.
Here we see that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing:
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
Why do you refuse to address what is said there?
beloved57
Well-known member
Well if you don't believe that Calvinism is the Gospel, then you are a unbeliever. As far as John 20:30-31 is concerned, I have already addressed that with you before. You need to find the discussion !
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Do you believe Calvinism says you can believe the gospel?
beloved57
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Calvinism says that you cannot believe the gospel unless you are first regenerated or given life. That is why they teach that regeneration precedes faith.
But here we can see that life comes as a result of faith (and not before faith):
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Since you think that you have an answer to what is said there then let's hear it. Otherwise, admit that you have no answer.
beloved57
Well-known member
I have already addressed that with you before, nothing has changed ! You don't believe the Gospel regardless, since Calvinism is the Gospel !
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Just like now all you ever did was run as fast as you could from that verse. If you have an answer you would give that answer.
Now are these verses useful?
Acts 5:32 NASB - "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Hebrews 5:9 NASB - And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
beloved57
Well-known member
See you at the Judgment, and it doesn't look good for you,since you don't believe the Gospel !
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Not in explain away the plain meaning of John 20:31.
Not to explain it away, but to discuss how these other two verses can be true in light of it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"And we are witnesses of these accounts, and so is The Spirit of Holiness, whom God gives to those who believe in him” (Aramaic Bible in Plain English).
This is a better translation because Paul makes it plain that we receive the Spirit by believing:
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:1-2).
Again, here is a better translation:
"and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal saving health unto all those that hearken unto him" (Heb.5:9; Jubilee Bible 2000).
Thank you.
Shasta
Well-known member
This is like visiting a Messianic Church, listening to maybe 20 minutes worth of a message on "Jesus the Messiah the Son of God" then going to the "Pauline Gentile Church" next door listening to a small portion of the message about "Jesus dying to Forgive our sins" and concluding that the two Churches have completely different messages.
Drawing such sweeping conclusions on the basis of what was NOT said in short sermons is not very impressive especially if we find that the "pastors" actually understood the teachings of the death of Christ. We must remember that a great deal is being taught especially at the Messianic Church where there were 12 full time ministers on staff. So what did the Apostles know? Were they really, as you claim, unacquainted with the highly important doctrines concerning Jesus work on the cross? Looking back on their training with Jesus and the statements they made in their own writings I found out the following.
1. John the Baptist had revealed to several of them at least that Jesus was the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). That says a lot in itself.
2. Jesus had told them many times He would suffer, die, be buried and, after three days rise again (Matt. 12:40 Matt 16:21 Matt 26:61 John 2:19-22)
3. The idea of Christ being the ransom, the blood payment for sin had been taught to them not by Paul but by Jesus during His earthly ministry (Matthew 20:26-28). Peter and John write about this fact in their letters (1 Peter 1:18-20, 1 Peter 2:24 ) and John (1 John 1:7, 1 John 4:10)
4. After the Resurrection Jesus walked them through all the scriptures that spoke of Him. He also opened their minds so they could have spiritual understanding Luke 24:44-45
5. "All the scriptures" would certainly have included key Messianic prophecies like Isaiah 53:4-6 . This passage shows that the death of Christ would bring about the forgiveness of sin and bring peace with God.
6. The idea that His sacrifice would bring about the Birth of the New Life within had also been taught by Jesus and passed on by the Apostles (John 3:3,1 Peter 1:23, 1 Peter 3:18-22, 1 John 1:7)
7. The prophet Jeremiah announced that God would make a new covenant with Israel which would result in the forgiveness of sins. (Jeremiah 31:31-3). In covering the scriptures pertaining to Him in the prophets Jesus would have included this as well. To reiterate this through all generations He instituted the covenant supper: In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luke 22:20).
There was absolutely no reason to suppose that Messianic believers did not have access to such teaching through the Apostles who, ny that time understood that the vicarious death of Christ atoned for the sins of mankind. Simply because it was not mentioned in a handful of sermons not does not negate what they knew.
beloved57
Well-known member
You dont understand nor believe Jn 20:31 ! The only thing you have done is quoted it, thats it !
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I said that it proves the life comes as a result of faith and not before faith, as the Calvinists teach.
beloved57
Well-known member
You said it proves that, but it does not say that !
You must not have read this:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102345
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
Jerry completely ignores the work of God's grace upon us. Jerry inserts his own actions as a replacement for God's grace.