Does man have a freewill ?

[beloved57]

Man has a will, but its not free from Gods Sovereignty, since Gods will always is done by Him, that means every other will is subservient to His. Now man is a slave to his sin nature, that doesnt mean he cant make good moral choices, naturally. He can go to church, be a good father, husband, and so forth. He be most moral and honest person can be. Dont smoke, drink or run the ladies. He can make wise and good decisions. But what he cant do and doesnt do, is good spiritually. Spiritually he is a slave to sin and doesnt do good, nothing that pleases God and would cause God to accept him in His favor.

Now here is testimony of scripture:

Ps 14:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.


Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12


They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is referring to spiritual good, none by nature does good !

Why is that ? Because by nature we are dead to God, and a slave to sin !

 

[beloved57]

Before regeneration, which I believe is how men are set free by Christ,, we are slaves to sin. Paul indicates that here Rom 6:20

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

The words Ye were both times are in the imperfect tense, it was a continuous repeated state, you couldnt do any righteousness while in that state.

So a person wouldn't be able to stop being a slave to sin, and start doing righteous, like turning by his or her own freewill and repent towards God and put Faith in Jesus Christ. If you can do that, congratulations, you set your own self free and started doing righteous.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Man has a will,

Not according to Calvinism, at least, not according to the actual definition of what a will is.

but its not free from Gods Sovereignty,

God's Sovereignty does not mean "absolute control."

It means He has authority over His creation. It doesn't mean He controls everything under Him.

since Gods will always is done by Him,

Except when it isn't...

that means every other will is subservient to His.

And yet, men still defy God...

Unless you think that man's sin is actually subservience to God...

Now man is a slave to his sin nature,

So which is it? Is man's will subservient to God, or is it subservient to sin?

that doesn't mean he cant make good moral choices, naturally.

Can man, when presented with the gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, recognize he is dead, without God, and turn to God for help?

He can go to church, be a good father, husband, and so forth. He be most moral

This is what it means to have (free) will, with regards to whether one sins or not.

and honest person can be. Don't smoke, drink or run the ladies. He can make wise and good decisions. But what he cant do and doesnt do, is good spiritually.

"Good, spiritually" is by definition "moral," @beloved57!

There's not two different kinds of good! There's not two different kinds of morality!

Spiritually he is a slave to sin and doesnt do good, nothing that pleases God and would cause God to accept him in His favor.

Supra.

Now here is testimony of scripture:

Ps 14:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.


Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

None of these say what you're asserting.

This is referring to spiritual good, none by nature does good !

Supra.

Why is that ? Because by nature we are dead to God, and a slave to sin!

Which is a completely different matter which you are conflating with, and that is that men have (free) wills.

 

[beloved57]

Man naturally can do no spiritual good, because naturally we are evil. Jesus speaking to some men, said Matt 7:11

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Being evil we are naturally spiritually corrupt, therefore a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit Matt 7:17-18

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Faith and repentance are good fruit, so a corrupt evil tree/person as we are by nature, cant [inability] bring those things forth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Man naturally can do no spiritual good,

Can a man, presented with the gospel of the grace of God, repent?

because naturally we are evil.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from this premise.

Jesus speaking to some men, said Matt 7:11

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

It's amazing how you have to rip a verse out of it's context to have only a small portion of it say what you want it to say, while the verse as a whole says THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!

Being evil we are naturally spiritually corrupt, therefore a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that that precludes an evil, hopeless, Godless man from, when presented with the reality of God, repenting from his evil, hopeless, Godless state.

Matt 7:17-18

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,

There is none good but God.

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Yet, even a Christian saved by God can do evil things, such as supporting abortion (murder of the innocent child in the womb).

neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Yet as you literally just quoted Jesus as having said, even an evil man can do good things!

Faith and repentance are good fruit,

Which are not a result of man's actions.

A man having faith in God, does so BECAUSE (read: is a result of) Christ died on the cross.

Faith and repentance (on the part of sinful men) are RESPONSES to what God has done. They are not man's fruit, but GOD'S!

This is why neither faith nor repentance is a work!

It's NOT what MAN has done, it's the RESULT of what GOD has done!

so a corrupt evil tree/person as we are by nature, cant [inability] bring those things forth.

Except and until God brings them His gospel!

 

[Clete]

Then you set yourself free from sin with your freewill. With your freewill you stop being a slave to sin

If this is actually the sort of reasoning that persuades you, then your mind is broken.

Does the man who's fallen over board save himself by clinging to the life preserver that the ship's captain tossed out to him?

Do the children who followed the fireman out of their burning house not have the fireman to thank for saving their lives or is it somehow only unconscious kids that the fireman can say he actually rescued?

How is it even possible that anyone can think that way? It's literally insane! And, the Calvinist has it far worse than even that because they teach and really actually do believe that it was the fireman who "rescued" the unconscious kids who set the fire that knocked them out in the first place!

Clete

 

[Clete]

By the way, this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Just because thing B comes AFTER thing A doesn't necessitate that A caused B.

Someone choosing to turn to Christ after being presented with the Gospel, whom Christ then saves, DOES NOT necessitate that that turning to Christ causes Christ to save him.

Additionally, it ignores what came before A!

This universe is God's creation, we just live in it and are a part of it. As such, we are His procession and He can do with us as He sees fit. God, being holy, righteous and just, requires the same of us but we have rebelled against Him, the very source of our life and existence and therefore deserve death and destruction. God, however, isn't only just, He is also merciful and has decided for His own sake to provide a way of salvation for us but made that salvation contingent on various things for various people at various times. At one time, simple sacrifices were required, at other times obedience to the Law of Moses was required, now submission to that law is forbidden but at all times, faith in God was required.

That wasn't our decision to make and we have no authority to change it. No one went to God and told Him that they deserve salvation because they submitted themselves to Him in faith. That never happened nor could it. That was entirely on God. He's the One who decided to save us and He's the one who decided both the means and the terms of that salvation and He decided all of that before a single person was alive to respond to Him in faith. We had literally NOTHING to do with it.

And so, even if the exercise of our will in turning to Christ causes God to apply the Christ's blood to our account, the only reason that works is because God set it up to work that way!

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

Additionally, it ignores what came before A!

This universe is God's creation, we just live in it and are a part of it. As such, we are His procession and He can do with us as He sees fit. God, being holy, righteous and just, requires the same of us but we have rebelled against Him, the very source of our life and existence and therefore deserve death and destruction. God, however, isn't only just, He is also merciful and has decided for His own sake to provide a way of salvation for us but made that salvation contingent on various things for various people at various times. At one time, simple sacrifices were required, at other times obedience to the Law of Moses was required, now submission to that law is forbidden but at all times, faith in God was required.

That wasn't our decision to make and we have no authority to change it. No one went to God and told Him that they deserve salvation because they submitted themselves to Him in faith. That never happened nor could it. That was entirely on God. He's the One who decided to save us and He's the one who decided both the means and the terms of that salvation and He decided all of that before a single person was alive to respond to Him in faith. We had literally NOTHING to do with it.

And so, even if the exercise of our will in turning to Christ causes God to apply the Christ's blood to our account, the only reason that works is because God set it up to work that way!

Clete

EXACTLY!

 

[Clete]

@Clete Didn't John Calvin himself have something to say about man's wills not being free? I thought there was at least one or two quotes from him where he denies the freedom of men's wills...

Calvin is a confusing, contradictory mess when it comes to free will. He taught that Adam and Eve had free will before the fall. He taught that Adam could have chosen not to sin and then he sort of glazes over the issues that implies about predestination. He also teaches that after the fall that this ability to choose between good and evil was gone and that its removal was in punishment for the rebellion and that the result is that man now has no ability to choose between good and evil unless and until he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Before regeneration man can make no choice between good and evil but does evil by the necessity of his nature.

(Notice, in the first quote below, how Calvin talks out of both sides of his mouth saying first that God is not responsible for Adam's fall and then saying that He made Adam with a "transient will, that out of man’s fall he might extract materials for his own glory.")

"At present it is necessary only to remember, that man, at his first creation, was very different from all his posterity; who, deriving their origin from him after he was corrupted, received a hereditary taint. At first every part of the soul was formed to rectitude. There was soundness of mind and freedom of will to choose the good. If any one objects that it was placed, as it were, in a slippery position, because its power was weak, I answer, that the degree conferred was sufficient to take away every excuse. For surely the Deity could not be tied down to this condition,—to make man such, that he either could not or would not sin. Such a nature might have been more excellent; but to expostulate with God as if he had been bound to confer this nature on man, is more than unjust, seeing he had full right to determine how much or how little He would give. Why He did not sustain him by the virtue of perseverance is hidden in his counsel; it is ours to keep within the bounds of soberness. Man had received the power, if he had the will, but he had not the will which would have given the power; for this will would have been followed by perseverance. Still, after he had received so much, there is no excuse for his having spontaneously brought death upon himself. No necessity was laid upon God to give him more than that intermediate and even transient will, that out of man’s fall he might extract materials for his own glory." (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 15, Paragraph 8)​

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"As the human mind is unable, from dullness, to pursue the right path of investigation, and, after various wanderings, stumbling every now and then like one groping in darkness, at length gets completely bewildered, so its whole procedure proves how unfit it is to search the truth and find it."(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraph 15)​

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"...free will does not enable any man to perform good works, unless he is assisted by grace; indeed, the special grace which the elect alone receive through regeneration." (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraph 8) Emphasis added​

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"...our freedom is not to the extent of leaving us equally inclined to good and evil in act or in thought, but only to the extent of freeing us from compulsion. This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin.​

In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraph 8 & 9) Emphasis added​

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[Derf]

Thats not in the scripture, so thats merely your sentiment.

Your sentence isn't in scripture either, so it's merely your sentiment that something not expressed explicitly in scripture is merely sentiment.

 

[beloved57]

Folks by nature our will isnt free from the will of the devil, 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Look what Paul writes of every natural unregenrate person: Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word desires is the same word will, our will conforms to the devils will by nature, we walk according to his will Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That word according is a strong word meaning

1. down from, through out
2. according to, toward, along, in agreement with or corresponding with !

As natural men our will is a slave to the devil and our sinful nature. Our nature is corrupt and our will is servant to our deceitful lusts Eph 4:22

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; By nature our will isnt spiritually free.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Look what Paul writes of every natural unregenrate person: Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Except he's not talking about "every natural unregenerate person." (Also, you're spelling and punctuation sucks. Slow down when you type.)

He's talking about "we" ... "who had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh," and "were by nature the children of wrath, even as the others."

He's talking about believers here, B57!

 

[Stripe]

Thats merely your sentiment.

Not really. It's what the word means.

 

[Bradley D]

Then you set yourself free from sin with your freewill. With your freewill you stop being a slave to sin

No I am forgiven of sin by God through our Lord/High Priest Christ Jesus in heaven.

 

[beloved57]

@JudgeRightly

Except he's not talking about "every natural unregenerate person." (Also, you're spelling and punctuation sucks. Slow down when you type.)

He's talking about "we" ... "who had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh," and "were by nature the children of wrath, even as the others."

He's talking about believers here, B57!

Yes he is writing to believers, however he is describing to them their condition prior to that, and what they were by nature as others Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

All men are naturally in this state !

 

[JudgeRightly]

@JudgeRightly

Yes he is writing to believers, however he is describing to them their condition prior to that, and what they were by nature as others

Thanks for just repeating what I just said...

All men are naturally in this state !

So what sin do babies commit to put them in this state?

 

[beloved57]

Thanks for just repeating what I just said...



So what sin do babies commit to put them in this state?

We discussed this mutiple times already. Babies sinned in Adam their Natural head. Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sure babies are innocent from committing sin as babies, but thats due to the fact they just havent developed enough yet, but in the by and by that sin nature they have will manifest itself.

Now I know you disagree, but thats on you !

 

[JudgeRightly]

Babies sinned in Adam their Natural head.

Babies are innocent.

Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Which doesn't say that babies sin.

Sure babies are innocent from committing sin as babies, but that's due to the fact they just haven't developed enough yet,

Thanks for conceding the entire point.

but in the by and by

Quit talking gibberish.

that sin nature they have will manifest itself.

Yet until it does, they are innocent, and there's no guarantee that they will live long enough for it to do so.

So, the question is: Do babies go to heaven who die before that "sin nature" manifests itself?

Or are some condemned to hell, while others go to heaven? Or do all babies go to hell?

Now I know you disagree, but that's on you!

Whatever that's supposed to mean...

 

[beloved57]

@JudgeRightly

Babies are innocent.

A person may be innocent from a crime, but that doesnt mean they arent a sinner Babies are innocent from the standpoint that they havent developed yet to actually commit iniquity, though its there in them. Their sinful heart is merely undeveloped. Babies are unclean /defiled Job 14:4

4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Sinners produce sinners !

 

[Poly]

Does man have a freewill ?

Im not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isnt free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

Im going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

Yes.

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