God and Evil

[George Affleck]

Why is "I don't know" unacceptable?

It is unacceptable because it is unacceptable to you.

Your question is really; "Why can't you leave me alone in my imaginary conundrum?".

You have chosen to use a silly question as your get-out-of-jail card. I intend to show you that the card is useless. God has revealed enough of the answer to this, coupled with our intelligence, that we can be satisfied with the answer and gain wisdom unto salvation.

 

[fishrovmen]

Maybe a help to the question goes back to Genesis 3?
Why didn't God want His creation to "know good and evil"?
Why did the serpent entice Eve to want to "know good and evil"?
Is it as basic an answer as being content with the surroundings we are placed in and just trust God that what is prohibited is what is best for us?

 

[MrDeets]

It is unacceptable because it is unacceptable to you.

It's not unacceptable to me. I think it's absolutely fine for one to say "I don't know".

Your question is really; "Why can't you leave me alone in my imaginary conundrum?".

:rotfl: I'll try to keep that in mind. If I'd wanted to be left alone, wouldn't it make more sense to stay off of TOL, and NOT post a blog about my experience? :think:

You have chosen to use a silly question as your get-out-of-jail card.

Nice to know you see your religion as a jail... I really didn't find it THAT bad. lain:

I intend to show you that the card is useless. God has revealed enough of the answer to this, coupled with our intelligence, that we can be satisfied with the answer and gain wisdom unto salvation.

I am quivering with anticipation... it must be obvious, since there's only one religion with one denomination floating around. I can't imagine how I've missed it.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

It would really help to know the over-arching lexical comparative definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

 

[PureX]

I agree entirely.

And yet, for me, the existence of evil and suffering is actually a proof of God's existence, love, and grace; not a reason to doubt it.

Put your thinking cap on PureX and see if you can contribute positively. It is absolutely true that our modern age rewards the non-thinking, one line, lazy, Twitter/Facebook mentality to the point where it dulls our thinking abilities.

Methinks you and others are happy to retreat into "I dunno!" because it takes too much effort.

The solution requires that we put on our "humility shoes" as well as it does our "thinking caps".

First, we need to recognize that what we are labeling "good" and "evil" are basically conditions being determined by our own needs and desires. What we call "good" is generally whatever is good for us, while what we call "evil" is generally whatever is not good for us. And so for us to blame "evil" on God we must be assuming that it's God's responsibility to see to it that existence serves our own needs and desires, exclusively. Which is both illogical, and quite selfish.

So that once we face this, and let go of this illogical and selfish assumption, we will find ourselves confronting a whole different paradigm. A paradigm in which God is the God of all that exists, and therefor the servant of all creation (if God is a 'servant' at all), and not just ourselves. And that being the case, God would enable the virus that kills us just as God enables us to kill other life forms so that we can survive. And the question then becomes why God would have created a universe in which life forms must destroy each other to maintain their own existence, and why this destruction causes us to suffer, so.

And the truth is, that we humans simply don't have the information needed to answer that question. Maybe life cannot exist any other way? Maybe God wants us to experience danger, and suffering, and finality, so that we can become fully cognizant of this gift of being that we have been given? Or maybe it's about generating maximum variety within the experience of living: everything must pass away so that the next thing can manifest? Or maybe it's about fairness, that all things get their chance at being, and at the loss of being?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else. And this brings up a basic fact of human existence: that we humans cannot have ALL THE ANSWERS. We just can't. And if we don't like that, too bad. Because we're going to have to live with it, regardless.

Or maybe God was never our servant as we presume. After all, there is no reason why God would be. In which case it's foolish for us to blame God for not being and doing what God is not, and does not, do. That would be like blaming the weather for being the weather, or for ignoring us in the process.

In any case, my answer to the question of "why does God allow evil?" is that it's a childish question. It's immature in that it's both selfish and unconsidered. And once we grow beyond this immaturity the question no longer really matters to us. Because we will have come to understand and accept our own humanity such as it is, and God's mystery such as it is. And then we can choose for ourselves how we will relate to God and existence, from there.

Humility is the key. And perhaps that is the answer to our question, after all … we suffer until we accept that we are not God's judge. Nor God's equals. And the sooner we accept this and quit blaming God, the sooner we can get on with the business of lessening our own suffering for ourselves, and lessening the suffering of others in that process.

 

[chrysostom]

It would really help to know the over-arching lexical definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

 

[George Affleck]

WHAT IS GOOD IN GOD'S EYES?

What is good?

They say the defining characteristic of philosophy is that it gives hard answers to easy questions. If that's true, then this question certainly fits the bill. The question was raised by commenters here whether we can believe God is good, when the Bible says he ordered the destruction of nations, and when he says in the Bible that suffering is beneficial (at least for some).

The answer to this question requires challenging common assumptions about what is really good.

Thus this is a question not just of philosophy but of Biblical theology. What is really good in God's eyes? The short answer is, in part it is what you would expect, and in part it is completely different.

God's ultimate goal is a universe that reflects his glory. (This is not ego-centric in God's case.) He is eternally at the center of all, from before time began and through all of natural and human history, and everything is to reach its consummation in him.

So the definition of "good" starts with God and ends with God. (I hear yelps and yowls of "circular reasoning!" in the background as I write this, but I remind you that for now my purpose is still simply to define terms as the Bible states them, and we're answering from within the Biblical framework; later we will discuss whether that framework is consistent.)

For humans, according to the Bible, the "good" is a matter of experiencing and reflecting the character of God. God's character is revealed Biblically as loving, holy, righteous, just, and wise. God's love is central ("God is love) and it's what most people seem to expect of him. His love is expressed in multiple ways, so many that it will be the subject of another post in this series yet to come.

God's holiness is less often recognized. This is where it's crucial to be aware of the Two Worlds mentioned previously: many of us living in one of these Worlds have no idea of what is said of God in the other. It would be hard to overstate the importance of God's holiness, or how unaware many are of it.

Habakkuk 1:13 says he is pure; he is too holy to look upon sin without dealing with it. He says to Israel, "You shall be holy, for I the Lord am holy." Holiness is not, as is often supposed, the same as righteousness; it has more to do with being set apart. God is separate from all that is sinful. (In Christ he has an answer for the obvious problem that poses, which I do not have time to delve into here.)

God is righteous, meaning he always does what is pure and without sin: "For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright" (Psalm 11:7).

God is just; he judges fairly. He rewards the good and punishes evil. Some evils in the world continue unabated but only for a time; he will deal with it in his time, but remains patient so that more may escape judgment, through Christ.

God is wise beyond our understanding; not everything has to make sense. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. I have often thought, in fact, that it is not surprising that some things about God remain puzzling even to those who spend a lifetime searching them out. If we could understand God, it would be more appropriate that he worship us than that we worship him.

This just scratches the surface of what is defined as God's goodness. It touches only on his moral goodness, and not his omnipotence, omniscience, and so on. (Brief blogger break: this is content matter for libraries of books; we can't cover it that thoroughly here!)

To summarize: God's goal is a universe that reflects his glory. His goodness is expressed in his love, holiness, righteousness, justice, and wisdom. What is good for humans is to come into a knowledge of God, to know his many-faceted goodness, and begin to share in his character: to become complete in Christ. This is with a view to eternity, so that temporary/temporal pain may be good if it produces eternal growth. This is nothing more than the common idea of delayed gratification, though magnified to a large scale.

God chose not to make human goodness automatic, not to make us automatons. He created us with the ability to make moral choices, and as a result, real moral evil has entered the world. Thus we have the problems, the questions that started us on this whole series. When the answer to these questions comes, it will be in this form (this is a preview): God's goodness is always operative in every facet: love, holiness, justice, and so on. Sometimes from our perspective, its apparent operation is more on the level of preserving holiness and justice than on the level of providing personal life, health, or comfort. Sometimes we, who do not fully share in or understand the whole extent of God's goodness, do not see clearly how it is working, but this is because of our limitations and not because of flaws in God.

This is very revolutionary thinking for those who live in the World that is not familiar with it. I'm sure there are questions and problems I've raised here in this very brief outline that I'm hardly aware of, but I'll leave it as is for now and let the discussion go forward.


from Thinking Christian by Tom Gilson

Now we are getting somewhere.

The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that God takes ultimate responsibility for His creation and for all souls (people) and will not do wrong by them. Suggesting that He will not is to not know the character of God.

Our flawed and limited perception of right and wrong, the struggle between good and evil, is because the whole of our entity is damaged by the fall. The only difference between those who are Christians and those who are not (in essence) is that Christians, by the gift of faith, now understand that because they are sinners, all thoughts and dogma must be governed strictly by the Revelation that God has provided.

This Revelation is, as it states, the written form of the Word of God of which Jesus is the human form.

Heb 11:6KJV

 

[George Affleck]

It would really help to know the over-arching lexical comparative definitions of tov (often translated "good") and ra'a (often translated "evil"), and to understand Hamartiology ("sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("evil"-ology). Especially considering Isaiah 45 indicating God creates evil (which means nothing like it seems to mean at first glance in English)

PPS, welcome and please fill in the gaps we will undoubtedly miss. Your insight is always helpful.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

On the contrary... I was attempting to see if anyone actually wanted this clarified by examining lexical scriptural truth rather than being ignorant of Satan's devices (noema - concepts of the mind).

I guess I'll just leave everyone to their concepts of the mind, which are Satan's devices.

Nobody seems to actually even know what "good" and "evil" are.

 

[chrysostom]

Nobody seems to actually even know what "good" and "evil" are.

some of us do

they are adjectives

 

[George Affleck]

"A noun is a part of speech that denotes a person, animal, place, thing, or idea"

evil is an adjective
but
many are trying to make it a noun

please don't add to the confusion

"Evil" is also a noun.

 

[chrysostom]

"Evil" is also a noun.

now that's drivel

 

[aikido7]

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

We live in a scientific, secular age now. We consult meteorologists instead of praying for weather. We consult medical professionals instead of faith healers.

The notion of God and human suffering has been a feature of human life since the beginning.

The Book of Job addresses this topic in a profoundly beautiful way. Job cries out, and God answers him out of the whirlwind with a lesson in Natural History. That book from the Hebrew Bible is a refreshing touchstone for all believers.

Believers everywhere are coming to realize that there is a Divine Consistency underlying the workings of Creation. Apples have always fallen from trees, no one has ever been born from a virgin, snakes certainly do not talk, and people do not walk on water.

Nor have they ever.

The fundamental mistake has been that Christians regard the sacred and metaphoric truths of the Bible literally. Unfortunately, this means they miss the underlying meaning of these truths and only have a one-dimensional faith.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

PPS, welcome and please fill in the gaps we will undoubtedly miss. Your insight is always helpful.

"Good" and "evil" (like many English words used to translate Hebrew or Greek word-to-word) are horrific stand-alone terms that have lended themselves to endless vague-though-adamant conceptual misunderstandings and misrepresentations. Tov and ra'a don't mean good and evil in any manner moderns apply.

Ra'a is privation or negation of tov. The most over-arching applicable meaning for tov is "functional"; so ra'a is the privation or negation of function as dys-/mal-/non-functionality.

God created all things tov. Completely functional according to His design. But latent within the actuality of functionality is the potentiality for dysfunction, malfunction, or non-function. Such is administered as subtraction by addition, much like adding a wrench to functioning gears subtracts functionality of a mechanism.

Like sin (hamartia in Greek), ra'a is not a "something". It's a degree of "somethinglessness". A void or lack. Just as hamartia is from "a-" (no/not) and "meros" (share/part) and is "the missing share or part" as a negation of "something" instead of a "something"; ra'a is a negation of tov.

Within every functional component of creation as actuality of existence, there is the latent potentiality of varying degree of subtraction or negation of that functionality. It's a qualitative issue, not a quantitative issue.

That which is functional (tov) is that which brings forth the character and quality of the Creator as activity within creation. That standard for character, quality, and activity is dikaiosune in Greek... righteousness, justice. God's standard is the only standard, and is the only true functionality.

"Evil" and "bad" have become incredibly diluted concepts that are individually subjective according to personal determination of one's own standard. One's own standard is self-righteousness, which is unrighteousness to whatever degree it differs from God's standard.

And God's standard is the whole of His eternal, uncreated, and immutable attributes (both incommunicable and communicable). HE is the standard for all character and conduct, and He revealed Himself in His Son.

Ra'a is the result of the Edenic scenario, and for which we have redemption, etc. The consequences aren't only individual, but environmental. And it's mercy that is for those sin consequences, just as grace is for sin itself (the articular noun, not just the doing and done of sinning and resulting sins).

God extends mercy and grace according to His sovereignty, etc., and is not obligated by His creation's entitlement or expectations. He laid down His very soul-life in Christ for all who hear and believe.

God is a covenant God. Part of the meaning for YHWH is "He who exists to covenant".

It's amazing how so many who are not in covenant with God expect Him to intervene in the dysfunctional groaning creation beyond the miracle of salvation and the Incarnation of the Logos, His Son.

Most thought and reasoning on this issue it ra'a, even among professing Believers.

 

[OCTOBER23]

GEORGE AFFLECK OPENING STATEMENTS

1. "IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 A . AMERICA was populated by British Puritans and Quakers who sought Religious Freedom and has MiLLIONS OF JEWS RESIDING HERE ALSO.

Therefore, God says, "MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME ""

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

AMERICA is suffering Tornadoes and Floods and Food Contamination etc .

THAT IS YOUR ANSWER - YOU BIBLICALLY AND HISTORICALLY IGNORANT

SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN...:madmad::madmad:

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

some of us do

they are adjectives

No, you do not. But I've never met anyone who actually does, so... you're not alone.

 

[boristhespider]

Surely if Man is made in Gods image , every human trait good and bad has come from God .. so does that mean God is capable of Murder , Rape , Abuse .... I know a response is the Devil causes that corruption , but why if we are Gods image not as resistant as him to this.. or see my first point ?

 

[aikido7]

Jesus believed in a different sort of God:

"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the good AND the evil and makes the rain fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous."

Matthew 5:45

*Two translations I have found say that God "makes the rain fall on both the just and the unjust."

The conservative Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had this to say:

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

In my view I believe Jesus told us to "love our enemies" because on some level we need our opponent.

 

[boristhespider]

Ok interesting point i just think if God created the world and Mankind he would of eradicated all evil at conception, or is our perception of what God intended incorrect... maybe he wants to have all the conflict and suffering and then see how we deal with it , either way i cant help thinking its a bit perverse of him and a bit hypocritical.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Surely if Man is made in Gods image , every human trait good and bad has come from God .. so does that mean God is capable of Murder , Rape , Abuse .... I know a response is the Devil causes that corruption , but why if we are Gods image not as resistant as him to this.. or see my first point ?

Adam was made in the image of God. Mankind is now in the image of Seth after post-sin Adam. We can be resurrected and restored to the image of God through salvation which is in Christ.

Every trait in post-Adamic mankind did not come directly from God.