keypurr
Well-known member
Consider if Jesus had not yet seen his Father after he died for three days HOW could he be in Paradise on the day on the cross?????
The comma is wrong.
Jesus taught existence after death
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Consider if Jesus had not yet seen his Father after he died for three days HOW could he be in Paradise on the day on the cross?????
The comma is wrong.
:idunno: what your talking about. Be explicit.
No, if he's right, YOUR BELIEFS about Scripture, NOT SCRIPTURE ITSELF, are wrong.
Stop trying to put your beliefs about scripture at the same level of scripture.
Then WHY THE RUSH!?
Why would he say that if he won't experience being with God until judgement day anyways?
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Lon
Well-known member
Paradise, according to the Jews, was not heaven. It was a holding place that existed holding two places, Paradise (Bosum of Abraham) and Hades. Most often, people confuse Hades, Hell, and the Lake of Fire as well as Paradise and Heaven. Jesus went to Paradise, not Heaven, for 3 days and preached to the captives. 1 Peter 3:19
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Lk.23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'"
Some folks try to make "Paradise" into something other than heaven and the blessed presence of God. No, it's heaven. Jesus is not saying Paradise = the grave or some spiritual element to it.
Eph.4:9, "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" This should not be taken to mean that Christ went down to hell in death (in metaphysical terms) either to suffer more (the cross itself is the place of spiritual abandonment, the wrath of God, the terror of hell), or even to tip over Satan on his throne and bust out various prisoners. It is enough (and biblical) to recognize that this could just be a reference to the Incarnation through the womb of Mary (see Ps.139:15) or simply to the basic grave that encloses our Lord (cf. Ps.63:9). That place is "all the way down" as far as the Incarnation of his Adamic (non-glorified) flesh goes--he completely identifies with us even unto death. The point of the passage is that the same Lord who came down from heaven returns victorious above.
1 Pet.3:19, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison," does not refer (though some have interpreted it so) to Christ preaching after his death to entities in hell. But to Christ "in the Spirit" (v18) who long before the present day and pending judgment went and preached in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20), in whom was the same Holy Spirit, to sinners--most of whom ignored his message of judgment. And they are now in prison a long time, and will never get out of there. But not because they had no warning; and so neither will sinners today who do not heed similar, even more urgent warnings.
AMR
The sad thing about this doctrine is that it insinuates that The Eternal Son does not hold the keys of death and Hades because he conquered neither. This means that the recipients of this doctrine have no comfort that death was conquered on their behalf and that Hades is their destination.
No thanks.
Lon
Well-known member
At this point, according to my understanding, Paradise is subsumed by Heaven: Ephesians 2:18. So the theory goes, that those who had not yet met Christ, had no access to the Father until His work was finished thus 1 Peter 3:19 then Matthew 27:51-53 explains why, what, and how saints went with the Lord Jesus to heaven. I realize you and others like CARM disagree. I'm trying to hold to an explanation that best fits all scripture data and to me, this better consistently makes sense of all scriptures, for your inspection.
Agreement with both models/interpretations on this point.
I acquiesce this, having believed it long before coming to the second model in seminary and I even appreciated it, but found often enough, it left a lot of questions like Matthew 27:51-53 unanswered as a mystery. While both of these address problems found in Catholic and cult doctrines alike regarding lying dead in the ground, it seems to me, the contrasted model of Hades/Paradise prior to the DBR of the Lord Jesus Christ, appears a better definitive solution for answering them. In Him -Lon
keypurr
Well-known member
1 Peter 3:19 does not say he went to Paradise. Are you assuming that?
Paradise, where is it?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such a one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?
It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Translators are human too.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
way 2 go
Well-known member
are you talking to me?
that is not an answer to the question I asked
where is God in luke 3:22 ?
Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
are you asking how the criminal on the cross could be with God in paradise that day ?
Paul learned it from Him
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).
Nothing there about coming back from their spirit realms to enter their bodies...
So do not marvel and make things fantastical or sensational...
what about Him?...at that point the Father was in heaven...His Son resting in the tomb...it was Sabbath
no punctuation marks in the original hence “Truly I say to you today...” important day that...day of poor thief’s death...nice to get a final verdict that day
nope you insert an “is present” when he is clear “and to be present”
Yes thanks for posting the text again...I bolded the part you keep missing...
Uhhh...some us are still eager to get there and to be with Him rather than here in this and around all this...
As he explained in verse “4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.”
Once dead you loose concept of time...next thing you know you are being woke up...you know like a good nights sleep ....soon as your head hits the pillow the next thing you know...morning...
Is why He called it a sleep...then clarified it as death...NOT passing to Abraham’s bosom...NOT fluttering about heaven a spirit ....unable to eat of the tree of life or touch His nail scarred hands or hug Him or each other...or pet that lion...you know, cuz you just a spirit...fluttering about...
Not able to see back here on earth your loved ones still suffering, still sinning...
What type of comfort is that?
Oh no...it is clearly written when He returns He brings His reward with Him at that time...
We go into heaven fully capable of enjoying it completely and NOT in a half state of spirit first and only...
Merely fluttering about..
Lon
Well-known member
Keypurr, I know I already addressed this but I think it wound up missing in the upgrade? Not sure.
I appreciate your willingness to look. I realize it isn't a popular position over this, it just looks like a good position as I've looked over this material. -Lon
Yes, if the model I hold to is correct, then there was no access to the Father until the Lord Jesus Christ's completed work. Hebrews 9:22 Ephesians 2:18
Same as I mentioned before: "Paradise" WAS the Bosom of Abraham in Hades prior to the Lord Jesus Christ's Redemption. Paradise now, has been moved to Heaven. Thus:Paradise, where is it?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?
So, all references rightly point to where it was at the time of writings.
I appreciate your willingness to look. I realize it isn't a popular position over this, it just looks like a good position as I've looked over this material. -Lon
For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. - Philippians 1:19-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians1:19-26&version=NKJV
Why was Paul saying he was struggling between deciding if he wanted to live more or to die and be with the Lord more?
"For to me, to live is Christ" After thinking about this for a moment, It seems to me that Paul is referring to the concept he explains here:
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. - Galatians 2:19-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:19-20&version=NKJV
In essence, Paul is saying that if he lives, it's Christ living through him.
"And to die is gain." So, the question I ask those who think that when we die we are unconscious is this:
What possible gain is it to die and then be unconscious until Christ returns? It makes no sense to say "to die is gain" if there's no immediate benefit from dying. What is there to gain from dying and immediately falling unconscious until judgement day? Wouldn't it not be a gain to die and immediately be in heaven with God and loved ones who have passed away?
----
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absentfrom the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absentfrom the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:1-8&version=NKJV
Paul here first says that "WHILE we are at home in the body we are absentfrom the Lord." While we are in the body, we are absentfrom the Lord. This is also a pretty good indication that two verses later he's not talking about our resurrected bodies, as he says "the" body, not "our" body or "a" body.
He then immediately contrasts that with "to be absentfrom the body and to be present with the Lord." Now, while this is a slightly different sentence structure, it's the fact that he's contrasting that with what he says two verses earlier that shows what he really means, which is that "while absentfrom the body we are present with the Lord," again, for the reason that he says "the" body, instead of "our" or "a" body.
Thus de we are confident tharreō and kai would eudokeō rather mallon be away ekdēmeō from ek the ho body sōma and kai at home endēmeō with pros the ho Lord kyrios. - 2 Corinthians 5:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:8&version=MOUNCE
"Thus we are confident and would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
Everything about this passage just screams simultaneity.
Why was Paul saying he was struggling between deciding if he wanted to live more or to die and be with the Lord more?
"For to me, to live is Christ" After thinking about this for a moment, It seems to me that Paul is referring to the concept he explains here:
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. - Galatians 2:19-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:19-20&version=NKJV
In essence, Paul is saying that if he lives, it's Christ living through him.
"And to die is gain." So, the question I ask those who think that when we die we are unconscious is this:
What possible gain is it to die and then be unconscious until Christ returns? It makes no sense to say "to die is gain" if there's no immediate benefit from dying. What is there to gain from dying and immediately falling unconscious until judgement day? Wouldn't it not be a gain to die and immediately be in heaven with God and loved ones who have passed away?
----
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absentfrom the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absentfrom the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:1-8&version=NKJV
Paul here first says that "WHILE we are at home in the body we are absentfrom the Lord." While we are in the body, we are absentfrom the Lord. This is also a pretty good indication that two verses later he's not talking about our resurrected bodies, as he says "the" body, not "our" body or "a" body.
He then immediately contrasts that with "to be absentfrom the body and to be present with the Lord." Now, while this is a slightly different sentence structure, it's the fact that he's contrasting that with what he says two verses earlier that shows what he really means, which is that "while absentfrom the body we are present with the Lord," again, for the reason that he says "the" body, instead of "our" or "a" body.
Thus de we are confident tharreō and kai would eudokeō rather mallon be away ekdēmeō from ek the ho body sōma and kai at home endēmeō with pros the ho Lord kyrios. - 2 Corinthians 5:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:8&version=MOUNCE
"Thus we are confident and would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
Everything about this passage just screams simultaneity.
Screams? It’s all you listen for...an erroreonous tradition of man that began long before He even used the rich man folk tale to teach about forgiveness...
You missed this:
“but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified IN MY BODY whether by life or by death”...
and when do we receive that body to magnify Christ? After the resurrection...as at death we do NOT magnify Him by our spirit...because Christ will be magnified IN MY BODY...now...here in this one...in this life
or THEN in the body to be received at the resurrection...
nothing at all about a spirit fluttering about magnifying...
I bolded the part above you wish it said instead Paul teaches:
“to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
Is why you HAD to use a slightly different sentence structure to say what you want/wish Paul to say which is “absent the body = present with the Lord”...
Paul taught copy me as I copy Christ...and He rose bodily...so when Paul is finally raised and receives his body he will INDEED by copying Christ...
Nothing there about his spirit fluttering about...magnifying
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Lon
Well-known member
Clearly. His joyous desire is to be with Him. There is no mention of soul slumber NOR is it his focus whatsoever.
In Corinthians, he confidently echos the same: 2 Corinthians 5:8
Revelation 6:9 :think:
You can believe as you like, and you are not alone but I don't think you can argue too strenuously. It does appear, from scripture, the Apostle is with the Lord presently. Whatever your disagreement, it cannot be overtly countered well. I've seen the soul-sleep first from a Catholic priest, so you are nowise alone in disagreement, but I just don't see it as tenable in scripture as the other. Generally, Protestants and even no few Catholics believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord 1 John 3:2
CherubRam
New member
In English usage the word "Hades" first appears around 1600, as a term used to explain the article in the Apostles Creed, "He descended into hell", where the place of waiting (the place of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) into which Jesus is there affirmed to have gone after the Crucifixion needed to be distinguished from what had come to be more usually called "hell", i.e. the place or state of those finally damned. The word hell was not originally in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic text as the so called biased translators have tried to establish it as scripture; but they were not good enough to cover up the reality of what God is saying. The source of this word hell and the concept of eternal torture is not Christian, but Pagan. You can find it in Babylon, in Greece, and especially Rome. But if you dig a little bit deeper you will see that it is bad translations that have infected this doctrine of Damnation in scriptures. As a matter of fact, scripture teaches the opposite. The introduction of the word Hell is more than a mistranslation, it a premeditated and deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word.
Hell. Germanic origin: Pagan Myth. The word was used to transfer the Pagan concept to Christian theology. For the Judaic-Christian origin of the concept, see Gehenna.
Hell
Old English hel, hell, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hel and German Hölle, from an Indo-European root meaning ‘to cover, conceal, or hide.
Hell was taught in Greek philosophy by Plato between 427-347 BC.
Hell
Also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell").
The English word may be in part from the Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). Hell is a pagan concept and word adapted to Christianity.
Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament .
Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδης), Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.
In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.
Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.
She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.
Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.
Hell. Germanic origin: Pagan Myth. The word was used to transfer the Pagan concept to Christian theology. For the Judaic-Christian origin of the concept, see Gehenna.
Hell
Old English hel, hell, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hel and German Hölle, from an Indo-European root meaning ‘to cover, conceal, or hide.
Hell was taught in Greek philosophy by Plato between 427-347 BC.
Hell
Also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell").
The English word may be in part from the Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). Hell is a pagan concept and word adapted to Christianity.
Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament .
Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδης), Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.
In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.
Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.
She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.
Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.