No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Nanja

Well-known member
All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religous and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



Exactly Brother !

Because all men naturally are carnally minded and alienated from the Life of God Eph. 4:18, they are spiritually dead: Having no ability whatsoever to come to Christ because their own will is not free, but in bondage to, and blinded by satan 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

So their only Hope of coming to Christ is being one that God Discriminately Elected in His Son Eph. 1:4-7 to be a partaker of His Grace Rom. 3:24, and thus being given Spiritual Life John 3:3-6.

But it is not by meeting any condition or performance on their part by exercising their own will which they imagine to be free. For it's God's Will that controls all others' will Dan. 4:35.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Exactly Brother !

Because all men naturally are carnally minded and alienated from the Life of God Eph. 4:18, they are spiritually dead: Having no ability whatsoever to come to Christ because their own will is not free, but in bondage to, and blinded by satan 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

So their only Hope of coming to Christ is being one that God Discriminately Elected in His Son Eph. 1:4-7 to be a partaker of His Grace Rom. 3:24, and thus being given Spiritual Life John 3:3-6.

But it is not by meeting any condition or performance on their part by exercising their own will which they imagine to be free. For it's God's Will that controls all others' will Dan. 4:35.

Amen Sister!
 

God's Truth

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Go to Ephesians 2:11…Paul says for them to remember that formerly they were Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised”. Paul continues to tell them that they were without God in the world, but now in Christ they are brought near through the blood of Christ.

That means ALL now have a chance to be reconciled to God through Jesus who died for the world, it does NOT mean no one had the ABILITY to believe before then. It means they were NOT ALLOWED to come to God before Jesus died on the cross because they were not in the covenant with God, which circumcision of the flesh was the sign. They could have entered the covenant but they chose not to do so.


Ephesians 1:3 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


Does not say when God made them believe. It says plainly they heard the message and believed.
 

7djengo7

New member
they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

So, what you're saying is that
  • they will not come unless they will,
  • they will not come unless they can,
  • they cannot come unless they will,
  • they cannot come unless they can.
No doy.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

Hi and in Acts 2:21 it reads , And it will be that ALL , whosoever might call upon the NAME of the Lord will be saved !!

Explain it PLEASE ??

dan p
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.

Amen Brother, before any person has the Spiritual Ability to please God Rom. 8:8-9 by their Coming to Him, they first must be given new Spiritual Life in New Birth; regenerated / born again of the Spirit. For the drawing, or to be led, is by the inward impel of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 

JudgeRightly

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The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ

Chapter verse, please.

Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

First of all, who is Jesus speaking to, in that verse, and second, does it say that they CANNOT EVER come to God? or does it say that they are simply not willing to come to Him, at that point in time?

It says the latter.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

"There is none" who understands, seeks after God.

NOT

"There will never be any" because they are incapable of understanding or seeking, except by an effectual work of God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same

Inability? Chapter and verse.

Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You're ignoring the rest of the verse.

If the Father draws someone, then they are then able to come to Christ.

That's not inability, except when they haven't been called.

First God calls. This is done by the preaching of the word. And then the rest is Romans 10.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” - Romans 10:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:14-18&version=NKJV

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Same as above.

Obviously, if someone is not preached the gospel, then they cannot respond to the gospel, because they haven't heard it.

How do they hear? A preacher must preach it.

Then they hear, then they can RESPOND to that preaching, either by accepting it, and calling out to God, recognizing that they cannot save themselves, and place their faith and trust in Him, or they can reject it, and cover their ears, and harden their hearts.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing,

Agreed.

When did the Father draw anyone?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

All that remains is for the gospel to be preached, so that any who hear it be given, via the preaching of the gospel, to repent and call out to God.

which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come

Chapter verse, please.

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Where does this say that their unwillingness was changed to willingness?

The person now has a willing mind

Chapter verse that shows where their unwillingness was changed by God to be willingness.

to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

What does this have to do with anything?

This is simply referring to those who were allowed to enter into the restricted parts of the temple in ISRAEL. It has literally nothing to do with salvation.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.

No, it's not.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Chapter verse, please.



First of all, who is Jesus speaking to, in that verse, and second, does it say that they CANNOT EVER come to God? or does it say that they are simply not willing to come to Him, at that point in time?

It says the latter.



"There is none" who understands, seeks after God.

NOT

"There will never be any" because they are incapable of understanding or seeking, except by an effectual work of God.



Inability? Chapter and verse.



You're ignoring the rest of the verse.

If the Father draws someone, then they are then able to come to Christ.

That's not inability, except when they haven't been called.

First God calls. This is done by the preaching of the word. And then the rest is Romans 10.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” - Romans 10:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:14-18&version=NKJV



Same as above.

Obviously, if someone is not preached the gospel, then they cannot respond to the gospel, because they haven't heard it.

How do they hear? A preacher must preach it.

Then they hear, then they can RESPOND to that preaching, either by accepting it, and calling out to God, recognizing that they cannot save themselves, and place their faith and trust in Him, or they can reject it, and cover their ears, and harden their hearts.



Agreed.

When did the Father draw anyone?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

All that remains is for the gospel to be preached, so that any who hear it be given, via the preaching of the gospel, to repent and call out to God.



Chapter verse, please.



Where does this say that their unwillingness was changed to willingness?



Chapter verse that shows where their unwillingness was changed by God to be willingness.



What does this have to do with anything?

This is simply referring to those who were allowed to enter into the restricted parts of the temple in ISRAEL. It has literally nothing to do with salvation.



No, it's not.
I just gave the scripture.
 

marke

Well-known member
Exactly Brother !

Because all men naturally are carnally minded and alienated from the Life of God Eph. 4:18, they are spiritually dead: Having no ability whatsoever to come to Christ because their own will is not free, but in bondage to, and blinded by satan 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

So their only Hope of coming to Christ is being one that God Discriminately Elected in His Son Eph. 1:4-7 to be a partaker of His Grace Rom. 3:24, and thus being given Spiritual Life John 3:3-6.

But it is not by meeting any condition or performance on their part by exercising their own will which they imagine to be free. For it's God's Will that controls all others' will Dan. 4:35.
Your mistake is in taking some verses to support a doctrine that is contradicted by other verses which are ignored. That results in false doctrine. It is true God must first enlighten the sinner with conviction from the Holy Spirit, something He has promised to do for all sinners.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Those who reject the light will go to hell.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Until God enlightens them (as He does every man born into the world) they are not guilty of committing the sin unto eternal death.

John 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

They have some excuse for sin while they are ignorant, but all excuses are lost if they reject the light after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Your mistake is in taking some verses to support a doctrine that is contradicted by other verses which are ignored. That results in false doctrine. It is true God must first enlighten the sinner with conviction from the Holy Spirit, something He has promised to do for all sinners.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Those who reject the light will go to hell.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Until God enlightens them (as He does every man born into the world) they are not guilty of committing the sin unto eternal death.

John 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

They have some excuse for sin while they are ignorant, but all excuses are lost if they reject the light after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Now explain each of those verses please.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Yes I did. Jn 6:44,65 states clearly man cannot come to Christ, lacks the ability.

Exactly Brother, the word Coming in those two verses actually means believing in Christ,

And Jesus says no man has that ability John 6:44, 65, except the Father enables them
by His drawing in and by the New Birth. But before that, no man can come to Christ:

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes I did. Jn 6:44,65 states clearly man cannot come to Christ, lacks the ability.

What it says is that a person cannot come unless the Father has drawn them.

It doesn't say they cannot EVER come.

Nor does it say that EVERYONE the Father draws WILL come.

Now respond to the rest of what I said, please.

Chapter verse, please.



First of all, who is Jesus speaking to, in that verse, and second, does it say that they CANNOT EVER come to God? or does it say that they are simply not willing to come to Him, at that point in time?

It says the latter.



"There is none" who understands, seeks after God.

NOT

"There will never be any" because they are incapable of understanding or seeking, except by an effectual work of God.



Inability? Chapter and verse.



You're ignoring the rest of the verse.

If the Father draws someone, then they are then able to come to Christ.

That's not inability, except when they haven't been called.

First God calls. This is done by the preaching of the word. And then the rest is Romans 10.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” - Romans 10:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:14-18&version=NKJV



Same as above.

Obviously, if someone is not preached the gospel, then they cannot respond to the gospel, because they haven't heard it.

How do they hear? A preacher must preach it.

Then they hear, then they can RESPOND to that preaching, either by accepting it, and calling out to God, recognizing that they cannot save themselves, and place their faith and trust in Him, or they can reject it, and cover their ears, and harden their hearts.



Agreed.

When did the Father draw anyone?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

All that remains is for the gospel to be preached, so that any who hear it be given, via the preaching of the gospel, to repent and call out to God.



Chapter verse, please.



Where does this say that their unwillingness was changed to willingness?



Chapter verse that shows where their unwillingness was changed by God to be willingness.



What does this have to do with anything?

This is simply referring to those who were allowed to enter into the restricted parts of the temple in ISRAEL. It has literally nothing to do with salvation.



No, it's not.
 

JudgeRightly

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Exactly Brother, the word Coming in those two verses actually means believing in Christ,

And Jesus says no man has that ability John 6:44, 65, except the Father enables them
by His drawing in and by the New Birth. But before that, no man can come to Christ:

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Not the point of contention.
 

JudgeRightly

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Exactly Brother, the word Coming in those two verses actually means believing in Christ,

How shall one believe except by hearing, and hearing except by someone preaching?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” - Romans 10:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:14-18&version=NKJV
 

beloved57

Well-known member
What it says is that a person cannot come unless the Father has drawn them.

It doesn't say they cannot EVER come.

Nor does it say that EVERYONE the Father draws WILL come.

Now respond to the rest of what I said, please.
Right, that does away with mans freewill ability to come to Christ.
 
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