No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

beloved57

Well-known member
Exactly Brother, the word Coming in those two verses actually means believing in Christ,

And Jesus says no man has that ability John 6:44, 65, except the Father enables them
by His drawing in and by the New Birth. But before that, no man can come to Christ:

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Exactly. Man naturally doesnt even seek after the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That syncs perfectly with what Christ said in Jn 5:40 since He is the True God in the Flesh !
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Right, that does away with mans freewill ability to come to Christ.

You're assuming that God has not called.

God called when He sent His Son to die on the cross. As RESPONDERS, humans do have the ability, so long as they have heard the gospel, which is that Christ died for all men.

Once God has called someone, anyone, they then have the ability to come to Christ.

It doesn't mean they will. It just means they have the ability.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Right, that does away with mans freewill ability to come to Christ.

In other words, it only does away with man's freewill ability to come to Christ FIRST, it does NOT do away with man's freewill ability to do so after He has called them.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
You're assuming that God has not called.

God called when He sent His Son to die on the cross. As RESPONDERS, humans do have the ability, so long as they have heard the gospel, which is that Christ died for all men.

Once God has called someone, anyone, they then have the ability to come to Christ.

It doesn't mean they will. It just means they have the ability.
Unless and until a person is Born of the Spirit, nothing he does pleases God Rom. 8:8, which includes his own coming to Christ.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You're assuming that God has not called.

God called when He sent His Son to die on the cross. As RESPONDERS, humans do have the ability, so long as they have heard the gospel, which is that Christ died for all men.

Once God has called someone, anyone, they then have the ability to come to Christ.

It doesn't mean they will. It just means they have the ability.
You not making sense sir. Man doesnt have the ability to come to Christ, He says so Jn 6:44,65
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I dont know what you talking about.

That's because you're trying understand through calvinistic lenses.

Take them off, then maybe you can see clearly.

This I do know, man cannot, doesnt have the ability to come to Christ, Jesus says so Jn 6:44,65

Man does have the ability to come to Christ after the Father calls. John 6:44, 65.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
That's because you're trying understand through calvinistic lenses.

Take them off, then maybe you can see clearly.



Man does have the ability to come to Christ after the Father calls. John 6:44, 65.
Its the bible. Jn 6:44,65 Man doesnt have the ability to come to Christ. When a person does come, its by the Power of God, His ability causing them to come. They're regenerated
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Its the bible. Jn 6:44,65 Man doesnt have the ability to come to Christ.

They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

See?

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Obviously, if the Father doesn't draw him, he can't come to Christ.

But once the Father does draw him, then he has the ability to do so.

When a person does come, its by the Power of God,

In that the "Power of God" is in the gospel preached, sure.

But there's no guarantee that the person will come.

If the person rejects the call, then when he goes to hell, it's because of the decision he made, not the decision God made.

His ability causing them to come.

Chapter verse where it says that the power of God causes every one of those called to come.

I agree that the ones who come, it's because of God's call.

But not all who hear God's call come.

They're regenerated.

Regeneration comes AFTER calling out. NOT BEFORE.

Calling out comes AFTER belief, not before.

Belief comes AFTER hearing, not before.

Hearing comes AFTER preaching, not before.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

See?

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Obviously, if the Father doesn't draw him, he can't come to Christ.

But once the Father does draw him, then he has the ability to do so.



In that the "Power of God" is in the gospel preached, sure.

But there's no guarantee that the person will come.

If the person rejects the call, then when he goes to hell, it's because of the decision he made, not the decision God made.



Chapter verse where it says that the power of God causes every one of those called to come.

I agree that the ones who come, it's because of God's call.

But not all who hear God's call come.



Regeneration comes AFTER calling out. NOT BEFORE.

Calling out comes AFTER belief, not before.

Belief comes AFTER hearing, not before.

Hearing comes AFTER preaching, not before.
When they are drawn, they are new creatures. No man has the abilty to come to Christ Jn 6:44,65
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
When they are drawn, they are new creatures.

Chapter verse that says they become new creatures when they are called.

No man has the abilty to come to Christ Jn 6:44,65

Repeating yourself doesn't magically make what you said come true.

Jesus was very clear:

They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Obviously, if the Father hasn't drawn him, he can't come to Christ.

But once the Father does draw him, that is when he is given the ability to do so.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Chapter verse that says they become new creatures when they are called.



Repeating yourself doesn't magically make what you said come true.

Jesus was very clear:

They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Obviously, if the Father hasn't drawn him, he can't come to Christ.

But once the Father does draw him, that is when he is given the ability to do so.
I have explained that already. You just need to know man cannot come to Christ which means believe in Christ Jn 6:44,65 so that does away with mans freewill to believe in Christ !

Jesus never said man has the ability to come to Him, He said the exact opposite !
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Temp Banned
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3


3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
If you look at the other verses that use the word draw, there is much to be learned.

Jhn 2:8

And he saith unto them, Draw out [antieo] now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

Jhn 4:7
There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw[antieo] water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

Jhn 4:11
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with [antlēma], and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 4:15
The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.[antieo


Then we have
Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3


3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power ! Wonderful verses that you shared

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3


3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
Those are wonderful verses that you shared

And a wonderfully emphasize why you want to be one of those that choose to believe John 3:16

For unless you believe you're not going to get drawn because God.





chooses to draw those that believe
 

beloved57

Well-known member
If you look at the other verses that use the word draw, there is much to be learned.

Jhn 2:8

And he saith unto them, Draw out [antieo] now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

Jhn 4:7
There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw[antieo] water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

Jhn 4:11
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with [antlēma], and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 4:15
The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.[antieo


Then we have
Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



Those are wonderful verses that you shared

And a wonderfully emphasize why you want to be one of those that choose to believe John 3:16

For unless you believe you're not going to get drawn because God.





chooses to draw those that believe
Those being drawn are the Elect of God/The Sheep, they have been made alive Spiritually, drawing implies that. So again man cannot come to Christ which means he cannot believe in Christ, that fact shows how false the notion of mans freewill is in Salvation, its a Myth.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Those being drawn are the Elect of God/The Sheep, they have been made alive Spiritually, drawing implies that. So again man cannot come to Christ which means he cannot believe in Christ, that fact shows how false the notion of mans freewill is in Salvation, its a Myth.
This stupidity not only flies in the face of scripture, plain reason and common sense but stands in open opposition to the every day lives and very conversion experience that those who believe it claim to have had themselves!

They believe this so called "myth" looks and feels EXACTLY like the real thing. They believe that what is only a mythical duck still looks, quacks, waddles, floats, flies and lays eggs exactly like any duck anyone has ever seen or heard of before and that the delusion is absolutely perfect in every detail.

What's more is that they openly acknowledge that the only reason they're the ones who know its a myth is because God has told them it's a myth and that no one is capable of knowing its a myth unless God has shown it to them.

It is simply the most unfalsifiable mental illness of a doctrinal system that you could hope to find.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I have explained that already.

No, you have not.

You just need to know man cannot come to Christ which means believe in Christ

Except that he can after the Father calls him. See, the verse even says so!

Jesus was very clear:

They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Why are you denying what scripture plainly says?

Jn 6:44,65

You don't believe Jesus' words in those two verses, so why do you keep referencing them?

so that does away with mans freewill to believe in Christ!

Scripture says otherwise:

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Jesus never said man has the ability to come to Him, He said the exact opposite!

No, he said that prior to the Father's calling, man does not have the ability. However, AFTER the Father calls him, a man DOES have the ability.

See?

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
 

beloved57

Well-known member
No, you have not.



Except that he can after the Father calls him. See, the verse even says so!

Jesus was very clear:

They do have the ability after the Father calls them.

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Why are you denying what scripture plainly says?



You don't believe Jesus' words in those two verses, so why do you keep referencing them?



Scripture says otherwise:

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”



No, he said that prior to the Father's calling, man does not have the ability. However, AFTER the Father calls him, a man DOES have the ability.

See?

John 6:44:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65:
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Already explained my point ! Man naturally can not come to Christ which means he cant naturally believe in Him Jn 6:44,65
 
Top