ECT Open Theism?

Swifty357

Swifty357

New member
I recently bought the God who risks by Sanders. As a MAD believer i was happy when i found theology online. While reading the posts i found open theism being discussed a lot here. I never heard of it before. So i read some of the debates. Watched Enyart and White debate. Searched the web for it. I really like how it believes God doesn't predestine child molestation and murders. And how some not all natural disasters are from God. But I never believed God was the cause of all evil anyway. And I see how Jonah prophecy to Nineveh helped them repent. And how jeremiah God says he can change his judgment if people repent which makes repentance and prayer more fruitful. And breeds zeal to evangelize the lost. What I dont like about it is saying God doesn't know everything and is not all powerful which i have always believed. I also dont like thinking God didnt know i would one day exist. And how could God give us all this endtime prophecy in Daniel and Revelations if he doesn't know the future? But I can see Jesus being God in the flesh coming to earth for us as a change for God the Son. Im very confused on this issue is there any good books i should read for the other side the closed viewpoint? I want to be balanced. Anyone else wrestle with these things?

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Swifty357

Swifty357

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Also Paul saying God foreknew us in Christ. This issue is deep in philosophy on both sides. Paul told us not to waste our time with philosophy. And the Bible also counsels us to lean not to our own understanding. Maybe I shouldn't try to figure all this out is another thought ive had. Like its sacrilegious possibly.



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Swifty357

Swifty357

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I was reading in Corinthians Paul telling those Christians not to be carnal last night and realized thats from an open theist perspective because if God predestined everything anyone does why tell them that? They would have no control. More food for thought i guess.

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Clete

Clete

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Swifty357 said:
I recently bought the God who risks by Sanders. As a MAD believer i was happy when i found theology online. While reading the posts i found open theism being discussed a lot here. I never heard of it before. So i read some of the debates. Watched Enyart and White debate. Searched the web for it. I really like how it believes God doesn't predestine child molestation and murders. And how some not all natural disasters are from God. But I never believed God was the cause of all evil anyway. And I see how Jonah prophecy to Nineveh helped them repent. And how jeremiah God says he can change his judgment if people repent which makes repentance and prayer more fruitful. And breeds zeal to evangelize the lost. What I dont like about it is saying God doesn't know everything and is not all powerful which i have always believed. I also dont like thinking God didnt know i would one day exist. And how could God give us all this endtime prophecy in Daniel and Revelations if he doesn't know the future? But I can see Jesus being God in the flesh coming to earth for us as a change for God the Son. Im very confused on this issue is there any good books i should read for the other side the closed viewpoint? I want to be balanced. Anyone else wrestle with these things?

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Does God Have a Future? – by Chris Hall & John Sanders
This one is a discussion/debate between Hall and Sanders. They are friends and besides some excellent argumentation on both sides, it's just a terrific example of how such debates should be carried out. The respect these two have for one another is obvious and the result is a terrific example of how Biblical disagreements should be handled between men of good character and conscience.

Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views – by Gregory Boyd, David Hunt, William Lane Graig & Paul Helm
Each author presents their view on the divine foreknowledge debate and a response to the other views. Boyd presents some of the best Open View arguments I've ever heard of in this book (aside from Bob's of course ;) ).

God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God – by Gregory Boyd
The title pretty much tells the story on this one. Brilliant book!
 
Swifty357

Swifty357

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I also was thinking even if Adam and eve never fell in the garden God still might have known i would exist. In a sinless paradise with no death and no need for Jesus to die for our sins. But God already told them to be fruitful and multiply so I think we would have all existed anyway just in alternate timeline in paradise.


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Clete

Clete

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Swifty357 said:
I recently bought the God who risks by Sanders. As a MAD believer i was happy when i found theology online. While reading the posts i found open theism being discussed a lot here. I never heard of it before. So i read some of the debates. Watched Enyart and White debate. Searched the web for it. I really like how it believes God doesn't predestine child molestation and murders. And how some not all natural disasters are from God. But I never believed God was the cause of all evil anyway. And I see how Jonah prophecy to Nineveh helped them repent. And how jeremiah God says he can change his judgment if people repent which makes repentance and prayer more fruitful. And breeds zeal to evangelize the lost. What I dont like about it is saying God doesn't know everything and is not all powerful which i have always believed. I also dont like thinking God didnt know i would one day exist. And how could God give us all this endtime prophecy in Daniel and Revelations if he doesn't know the future? But I can see Jesus being God in the flesh coming to earth for us as a change for God the Son. Im very confused on this issue is there any good books i should read for the other side the closed viewpoint? I want to be balanced. Anyone else wrestle with these things?

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The attributes you mention are always on one side or the other of this debate. The Settled View elevated God's quantitative attributes (How much God knows, How powerful is He, How big He is, etc) above everything else. The Open View allows God's qualitative attributes (i.e. How good God is) to take center stage.

Settled view: God is Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability and Impassibility
Open View: God is Living, Personal, Relational, Loving and Just (i.e. Righteous).

You are in fact forced to choose which set you will place more emphasis on.

Bob Enyart does a masterful job of driving this point home is the debate which is published right here on TOL...

Openness Theology - Does God Know Your Entire Future? - Battle Royale X
Samuel Lamerson vs. Bob Enyart
 
Swifty357

Swifty357

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Way satan being cast out of heaven is justice. If satan was made to fall from heaven and be evil it wouldnt be right to put him in hell for all eternity. If he had no choice and had to be the boogieman of earth punishing him would be cruel.

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Nang

Nang

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Swifty357 said:
I was reading in Corinthians Paul telling those Christians not to be carnal last night and realized thats from an open theist perspective because if God predestined everything anyone does why tell them that? They would have no control. More food for thought i guess.
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The moral Law of God commands all men to love God, turn away from sin, and live. But because the human nature has been corrupted, and we are all born human, none of us can do what God demands.

The grace of God reveals through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that His power can change us, so that we can do the above.

All the souls chosen for redemption in Christ Jesus, will sometime in their lifetimes, be born again by the power of God and given new hearts, minds, eyes, and ears to love and obey God as they should.

Those who remain carnal, remain in their sins, as God Himself predestines. Read the Book of Romans, Chapter 9. All these things are worked by God according to His election.
 
Clete

Clete

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Nang said:
The moral Law of God commands all men to love God, turn away from sin, and live. But because the human nature has been corrupted, and we are all born human, none of us can do what God demands.
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According to you, our every action, whether rebellion or not, was determined by God Himself before anything existed.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

The grace of God reveals through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that His power can change us, so that we can do the above.
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Change us? We are precisely and only what God predestined us to be before any of us were even conceived. We can't do a single thing, according to your doctrine, that He has not preordained to occur precisely as He wants for it to occur.

All the souls chosen for redemption in Christ Jesus, will sometime in their lifetimes, be born again by the power of God and given new hearts, minds, eyes, and ears to love and obey God as they should.
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Just like good little robots.

Those who remain carnal, remain in their sins, as God Himself predestines. Read the Book of Romans, Chapter 9. All these things are worked by God according to His election.
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Romans 9 has nothing to do with predestination. It is about Israel as a nation being cut off. Israel - the nation - is the clay in the Potter's hands. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to Israel. Jeremiah 18 is the chapter where God states that if He prophesies something and people repent then so will He. Sort of blows the whole Calvinist idea to smithereens.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Clete said:
He died for all sin, Swifty.

The idea that He only died for some sin is a Calvinist lie that is not in the Bible at all.
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Not what Reformers teach, Clete . . .

Jesus Christ became sin and was raised up on the cross to put sin to death.

Carnal souls are not changed by this message, because they do not believe, so their sin condition remains the same.

Those predestined to everlasting life in Christ, are changed, so that they can believe what Jesus Christ did on the cross. They are freed from sin, in order that they may serve righteousness.

This was prefigured in Numbers 21:6-9 when Moses made a bronze serpent on a pole, to heal bitten persons from dying from snake bites. This is a picture of Christ being raised up on the cross, so that His people could be assured they would not suffer death from their sin condition.
 
Swifty357

Swifty357

New member
Thanks for those recommendations. I appreciate everyone giving their viewpoint on this. Ive been a Christian since the 90s with no clue this battle was taking place. Cant wait to checkout Enyart Lambertson. In his debate with White after the first round I thogught White was destroying him. And i was leaning settled viewpoint. But Enyart was scrappy and hung in there and by the time the cross examinations were over Enyart had me on the open view point. That was like a couple pit bulls fighting. Both men had strong cases and elite debating skills. Very close in my opinion. I gave it to Enyart being a little more persuasive, but I could understand someone siding with White as well. Probably the best debate i ever watched in anything.

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andyc

andyc

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In scripture we see the perfect will of God undermined by the will of man, but ultimately foreseen from an omniscient perspective.

The perfect example of this is shown where God says through Jacob, "the scepter shall not depart from Judah" (Gen 49:10).
But wait a minute, didn't God choose Saul to be king? And didn't he say that he would have established Saul's kingdom forever?

How can the scepter not depart from Judah if Saul (a Benjamite) is chosen as king?
Did God cause Saul to fail?
Did God know through foreknowledge that Saul would fail?
How could God know that Saul would fail hundreds of years before he was born?

The obvious answer is that God knew that Saul would blow it, and that there would be a boy from Judah who would take the crown from Saul.

Open Theism is nothing but a humanistic attempt at toppling Calvinism. It denies God's Omniscience.
 
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