ECT Open Theism?

[Nang]

I dont understand why White has to own God decrees all rape. Or why Enyart has to limit Gods knowledge and say God never knew we would exist or to say Christ could have disobeyed the Father. I think these are false premises to say it has to be one way or the other. Jesus is as much God as the Father or Holy Spirit. And they are one Jesus couldnt be against himself. And White need not put God in the drivers seat of all tragedy as if everything we do was chosen by God. Just cause God knows what we will do doesnt make it his fault. God didnt want to make robots or angels with no freewill that couldnt bring him pleasure or glory. It makes him a monster if that is true. Which I cant believe God is behind all evil by divine decree. But I will never blasphem and say God is not all knowing or all powerful. But he made us in His image and lets us choose life or death, wrong or right. Of course he could stop all evil but then we could never really love, or live. Can the truth be both views. It would harmonize all these scriptures that seem to be disagreeing.


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God's is exercising Justice over sin and wickedness, when He sends calamnities as consequences of unbelievers acts.

Death is an evil consequence of sin; ordained by God.

God is not the author of sin, but He is the Judge of all sinners and He has the Sovereign right to rule His world according to His will.

Thank God for His love, mercy, and grace that also provides men with a remedy for what they cause . . Jesus Christ, and faith in Him!

God is to be worshiped as Just as well as Loving. Imbalance of thinking or teaching only brings anguish, questionings, and errors.

Rest in His goodness. Let unrepentant sinners worry about evil consequences to their acts. Men rape, murder, and lie. God does none of these things and He is not the author of these things, even though He knows all things, and controls all things.

And this evil world will not last forever. Christians have promises of a new heaven and new earth, where all sin and suffering will be no more.

 

[patrick jane]

I dont understand why White has to own God decrees all rape. Or why Enyart has to limit Gods knowledge and say God never knew we would exist or to say Christ could have disobeyed the Father. I think these are false premises to say it has to be one way or the other. Jesus is as much God as the Father or Holy Spirit. And they are one Jesus couldnt be against himself. And White need not put God in the drivers seat of all tragedy as if everything we do was chosen by God. Just cause God knows what we will do doesnt make it his fault. God didnt want to make robots or angels with no freewill that couldnt bring him pleasure or glory. It makes him a monster if that is true. Which I cant believe God is behind all evil by divine decree. But I will never blasphem and say God is not all knowing or all powerful. But he made us in His image and lets us choose life or death, wrong or right. Of course he could stop all evil but then we could never really love, or live. Can the truth be both views. It would harmonize all these scriptures that seem to be disagreeing.


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View attachment 24513

 

[Swifty357]

Mr. Religion I will check out that thread. I want to see all the against arguments cause James White said no Christian in history believed open theism till recently. Which doesnt make it untrue but makes me cautiously approach it. I would feel better about it if it was from the Church fathers in the apostolic age. But lots of truth was lost in the dark ages. Mid acts dispensationalism wasnt really recovered untill the 1950s with my hero C.R. Stam. Of course pioneers like John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield uncovered these truths after the reformation but they thought the church started in acts 2. So more light was revealed later by good bereans.

WonderfulLordJesus I wouldn't feel right just whole cloth accepting all open theism without giving the otherside a day in court. Especially when the other side is aligned with the reformers. I need to learn more about Calvinism. I dont even know what the tulip stands for. Besides total depravity and perseverance of the saints. I need to learn the uli doctrines. Enyart said it comes from augustine and greek philosophy. So ill be wary. The bible alone wont help me understand both sides. Both sides have strong scriptures supporting each position. Which is why my last couple pists had me trying to harmonize both sides with the scriptures. Thats the MAD thoughts trying to make all problem texts proof texts. Thats what MAD does.

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[Danoh]

Mr. Religion I will check out that thread. I want to see all the against arguments cause James White said no Christian in history believed open theism till recently. Which doesnt make it untrue but makes me cautiously approach it. I would feel better about it if it was from the Church fathers in the apostolic age. But lots of truth was lost in the dark ages. Mid acts dispensationalism wasnt really recovered untill the 1950s with my hero C.R. Stam. Of course pioneers like John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield uncovered these truths after the reformation but they thought the church started in acts 2. So more light was revealed later by good bereans.

WonderfulLordJesus I wouldn't feel right just whole cloth accepting all open theism without giving the otherside a day in court. Especially when the other side is aligned with the reformers. I need to learn more about Calvinism. I dont even know what the tulip stands for. Besides total depravity and perseverance of the saints. I need to learn the uli doctrines. Enyart said it comes from augustine and greek philosophy. So ill be wary. The bible alone wont help me understand both sides. Both sides have strong scriptures supporting each position. Which is why my last couple pists had me trying to harmonize both sides with the scriptures. Thats the MAD thoughts trying to make all problem texts proof texts. Thats what MAD does.

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I'm telling you; just grow in your understanding of Mid-Acts (Romans thru Philemon) and those things will begin to clear up.

You'll find that as they come up; the time you have invested in the Mystery will have solved for such issues; you'll find you know the answers.

And you'll scratch your head, and say "well I'II be - praise the Lord for His Word rightly divided in light of the Mystery!"

This is how paradigms work.

All MADs strong in their understanding know this paradigm that I am describing.

Note those who agree this is the case and ask them about this experience.

You are not alone in your questions; you know.

Then again, some MADs on TOL are mad at me again; so you might not see much agreement with me on this valid point :chuckle:

Love em anyway - they're OUR MADs

 

[Swifty357]

When I first got born again as a teenager I felt so good and right with God through what Jesus did for me on the cross. It was at a strongman show evangelism things. Me and my friends went to see handcuffs broken and baseball bats broken like toothpicks. Phonebooks ripped in half. Ect. Me and my friends were young teenagers. I had no idea i would accept the gospel that evening. None of my friends took the alter call. Im shy and introverted and not the type to make a public profession of faith. But when the strongmen preached about sins and hell and Jesus death on the cross for my sins i feltna call so srrong in my heart. I went up front said the sinners prayer and cried in front of hundreds of people. I went back sunday to the church but the evangelical strongmen were gone. And the church was actually a oneness pentecostal assembly. I didnt know any better so i let the preacher baptize me in the name of Jesus Christ the next sunday. Then the whole church and preacher turned against me. Said I wasnt saved because there was no evidence because i didnt speak in tongues i was 14. I had already been getting made fun of by my friends and my dad for being a christian. Then the church all turned against me and i never went back. But it was the happiest time in my life. I was given a hardcover niv a pew bible when i was saved. I still have it. I read it constantly. The love of Jesus for me opened my eyes and changed everything about my personality. I knew hardly nothing at first. Started following the leviticus food laws because i read them and thought i was supposed to follow anything in the bible. I went without school lunch on days they had grilled ham and cheese or sausage pizza. I remember quizzing the lunch lady making sure the mystery meat in the tacos was 100percent beef. And i tried not to walk very far on sundays which i thought was the sabbath. But i was only 14 and had no car so i had to walk to chuch and i tried a few different ones back then. I realize this is grevious legalistic error now but back then i was trying hard to please the Lord who bought me. I dont think people should judge someones salvation because their doctrine might not be perfect. As a work in progress the Holy Spirit lead into more and more truth. Until Things that differ helped me rightly divide the word of truth.

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[hoghead1]

Hello, Swifty,
I'm a newbie here. I would be happy to discuss open theism with you. However, I find it awkward to have to go online to the site. I am trying to work out a way I can receive posts directly in my mail box. Getting back to open theism, I would identify myself as a process theologian. However, open theism is closely related to process. I gather, from your posts, your concer4n is why can't God know all of teh future ahead of time. My response is that God knows the future for what it ontologically is: open-ended and indeterminate, a realm of possibilities, not some definite matter of fact. For God to know it all in detail ahead of time would be for God to have predetermined it all. But then we would have no free will. Given that we do, then the future is open-ended until we decide. God cannot decide our decisions for us. As I said, I would be happy to discuss this matter more, as well as other matters related to pen theism, provided I can receive posts in my mailbox.

 

[Danoh]

When I first got born again as a teenager I felt so good and right with God through what Jesus did for me on the cross. It was at a strongman show evangelism things. Me and my friends went to see handcuffs broken and baseball bats broken like toothpicks. Phonebooks ripped in half. Ect. Me and my friends were young teenagers. I had no idea i would accept the gospel that evening. None of my friends took the alter call. Im shy and introverted and not the type to make a public profession of faith. But when the strongmen preached about sins and hell and Jesus death on the cross for my sins i feltna call so srrong in my heart. I went up front said the sinners prayer and cried in front of hundreds of people. I went back sunday to the church but the evangelical strongmen were gone. And the church was actually a oneness pentecostal assembly. I didnt know any better so i let the preacher baptize me in the name of Jesus Christ the next sunday. Then the whole church and preacher turned against me. Said I wasnt saved because there was no evidence because i didnt speak in tongues i was 14. I had already been getting made fun of by my friends and my dad for being a christian. Then the church all turned against me and i never went back. But it was the happiest time in my life. I was given a hardcover niv a pew bible when i was saved. I still have it. I read it constantly. The love of Jesus for me opened my eyes and changed everything about my personality. I knew hardly nothing at first. Started following the leviticus food laws because i read them and thought i was supposed to follow anything in the bible. I went without school lunch on days they had grilled ham and cheese or sausage pizza. I remember quizzing the lunch lady making sure the mystery meat in the tacos was 100percent beef. And i tried not to walk very far on sundays which i thought was the sabbath. But i was only 14 and had no car so i had to walk to chuch and i tried a few different ones back then. I realize this is grevious legalistic error now but back then i was trying hard to please the Lord who bought me. I dont think people should judge someones salvation because their doctrine might not be perfect. As a work in progress the Holy Spirit lead into more and more truth. Until Things that differ helped me rightly divide the word of truth.

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That is one beautiful, moving testimony.

Okay, so your path did not start out Mid-Acts.

You'll find neither does it start out that way for many MADs.

Which is why we so appreciate both its' clarity and one another even in our differences at times.

Because many of us have walked a path not much different from how you started out, Swifty.

You will find some MADs who too easily forget this; but they are few and far in between.

Most are there for you, and the ones who every so often get mad, eventually get MAD - back on the issue that matters and all is well - til the next spit ball fight :chuckle:

Just take it all in and wait out the wisdom that only time at any endeavor requires and you'll be just fine...

When the issues fly from other believers, just remember this prayer towards you..

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Swifty357]

And i know the Lord led me in that direction step by step. Im 39 now and had the privilege of leading my dad in the sinners prayer. He was antagonistic for years but finally started believing by seeing my joy in the Lord over the years. I never knew he was waching me. He died in 2007 of primary progressive multiple sclerosis. Im so glad he got saved because i wouldn't have been able to go on living if i thought he was burning in hell. He was my only parent and we were tight. Im so glad i have peace of mind in that and in the fact i took care of him everyday till he died even though i had a fulltime job as well. So im not ate up with guilt for not doing enough like some people feel after a loved one dies. I had the candle burning at both ends but he did the same for me when i was a child. Forsaking being able to go out and have fun single handedly raising me from 4 years of age on. I think sacrifice is one of the best proofs that you love someone. As Jesus himself showed in his life, death, and resurrection. Now i have a bunch of study bibles and commentaries, concordances, multiple translations, pc and android programs ect. But its hard to top an NIV pew Bible. The Niv is not my favorite translation by a long shot. But I first got to know Jesus better from it so i have some nostalgia for it.

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[Danoh]

So how did you come to Acts 9 aka Mid-Acts, Swifty?

Thanks

 

[Swifty357]

Thanks Danoh for the kind words. Yeah I made a lot of doctrinal mistakes along the way. At one point around 15 or so I started making tracts at home on notebook paper walking all the way across town to ben franklins store and have the old woman behind the counter help me make copies i would always bring change from my piggy bank but she would never charge me. Later in life i realize she must have appreciated my zeal and never charged me the dime a sheet. Then I would walk to the other side of town and pass them out at marsh supermarket or walmart. Some people took them and politely left. Others cussed at me and was rude. Some just politely declined. Walmart eventually stopped letting me pass them out as people would trash up the parking lot with them. Marsh always let me and it ended up leading to my first part time job as a stockboy and occasionally a grocery bagger. My dad started worrying i was a fanatic. Even thought maybe i should see a psychiatrist. Once I went to pass out my tracts at a kkk rally but one of the skinheads Rottweiler attacked a police dog and a riot ensued. One of the klansman had called me a jew when he was walking by which i told him im not jewish. Which made him scream louder JEW. Seconds later the dogs got into it and the riot happened so actually not one tract was given away that day. Usually it was a handwritten sinners prayer with handcopied bible verses. I don't have any remaining but that was the formula i used. I probably misspelled alot of words cause i still make a lot of grammatical errors. Probably be embarrassing to see one but my heart was in the right place.

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[Swifty357]

Funny fact about the klan march my hometown in Indiana is 99 percent white. Why go there and march against blacks, jews, and immigrants? A place where your targets dont even live. And these guys had all come from another state, i want to say Montana if my memory serves me right. I found out within a couple seconds that truth is not really what the white supremacist seeks. In my brief encounter with the klansman when i tried handing out christian tracts on the street. He falsely called me a jew. When i tried tp correct him his strategy was to out yell me. The kkk claims to be a Christian organization. Nothing could be further from the truth. The preach hatred and have no problem yelling at a young Christian for just trying to pass out some tracts. The leaders were jailed for inciting a riot and thankfully they never came back as far as i know.

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[Swifty357]

About this same time I met Terry who ran a cleaning service buffing the floor at marsh supermarket. He was a bible scholar went to college majoring in biblical languages. Knew greek which impressed me a bunch. I started running some questions by him. He realized i was steeped in legalism. And he was a baptist so he taught me a lot of truth. He didn't know about the mystery, but taught me a lot about grace. He gave me a book classic Christianity by bob george, i still have it. He and his wife had me over to their house a lot for bible studies and great cooking from his wife. He taught me how to use a strongs concordance. And bought me my first scofield reference bible. For about a year till him and his wife moved to Maine was my first introduction to real bible study and good food. Being raised by a dad whose culinary skill wasnt very strong spagettios was as good as food got for me. His wife was a chef at an upscale restaurant in Indianapolis. And she introduced me to every good food from italy, france, even spanish food. I gained 20 pds at least. And i started going to a baptist church with them. And Terry curbed a lot of the zealous well meaning fanaticism that worried my dad. I lost touch with them over the years but i cant wait to tell them in heaven how much they meant to me. After all the baptist bible studies with Terry i learned a lot of the doctrines i still believe. Of course with the mystery that paul taught and this dispensation of grace my knowledge expanded but the foundation Terry layed in our systematic bible studies about salvation by grace through faith not of works. About Christ becoming our Sabbath so i need not try to follow Israel laws not meant for the body of christ. And i stopped trying to follow the food laws too and thanks to Terry bacon and porkchops were back on the menu. That was my journey to MAD. Not sure why i got on this tangent. Oh yeah i really dislike when people act like your theology has got to be textbook perfect or you can't possibly by saved. Which for some reason led me to give my testimony.


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[Danoh]

How did you end up at Mid-Acts?

And I believe there are some Mid-Acts assemblies out your way.

I know the Berean Bible Society holds there Bible Conferences in Cedar Lake.

There is Shorewood Bible Church in nearby Bellwood, IL and in Chicago.

Some assemblies are on youtube and air their services on line.

Watch out for the Acts 28 assembly in Holland, though, lol

Anyway, how did you come to Mid-Acts; I'm always fascinated by that kind of thing

 

[Swifty357]

Then in my search for more light i subscribed to the berean searchlight which led me to ordering Things that differ by C.R. Stam which opened my eyes like a light switch being turned on. I believe the Holy Spirit kept leading me more and more into truth. Letting me meet Terry and his wife Cathy and giving them an adult couple in their 40s the patience and generous natures to take a teenage boy in and teach me, feed me, buy me clothes, introduce me to classic Christianity by bob george, buy me a study bible, take me to church, and show me a lot of love and attention. My grades went up in school as well i never would have graduated from high school without them. Terry taught me algebra in a weekend. And i passed the pre algebra stage overnight and went right to algebra 1. The teacher said i should stay in general mathmatics and that i had a learning disability. Terry said that just wasnt true and spent one weekend of full cramming and taught me algebra. And i went in and did really well on the istep test. So even though they had my dad almost talked in to holding me back one more year. In one weekend Terry changed all that. He also taught me english. I was reading at a 6 grade level. After terry and cathy worked with me I was reading at the 12th grade level by the end of 10th grade. He also tutored me on biology. Even though he introduced me to Henry Morris books on young earth creationism he taught me to tell Cesar the answers they wanted while knowing in my heart it wasnt true it was a needed credit to graduate. He also taught me American history and made it come so alive to me that i raised an F to an A. Later i went to IU east college for a year and a half and did pretty good. All these things wouldnt have happened if they hadnt taught me. And my dad was.so pleased in my progress he never questioned me going and staying with them a lot. He knew they were good people teaching me normalcy and helping me a lot at school.

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[Swifty357]

Later in my life this is what caused me to take a paycut and work for 10 years for the state of indiana at a children's home for at risk youth. It closed in 2011. Trying to pass on hope and tutoring as a residential parent for disadvantaged kids. I wanted to help people as I was helped. We had 12 kids a division but i did my best to be a Terry to these kids. And a lot of them are still facebook friends with me to this day. In my wildest dreams i couldn't be as good of a mentor as terry. But i like to think ive made a small difference in some peoples lives.

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[Swifty357]

Ive went to seminars in the grace movement. Later read Joel finks the mystery. Bob hills book the big difference in the gospels. Stams 2 hardback acts dispensationally considered. And Paul Sadlers Triumph of his grace. Ive also been involved in Richard Jordans Grace impact as a student. And Truth for Today is a Acts 28 ministry in Indiana keeping Bullingers works alive. I get their newsletter and have everything bullinger ever released. But just using pauls prison epistles is to much dividing of the word of truth for me. I believe all Pauls epistles is for us in the dispensation of grace. And while pauls later epistles may be more advanced with more meat and more light that only makes since as the Lord kept revealing mysteries to paul, but i don't think this disqualifies his earlier letters from being for us to.

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[Swifty357]

I mean how can they say Romans isnt for us today or Galatians. The gospel of grace is very present in pauls early letters too. Salvation is clearly taught on the Roman road and i think to relegate his early letters to an earlier dispensation is grevious error.

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[Clete]

Has anybody else noticed that what sets TOL apart is its cordiality? This reminds me! I'd been meaning to study-up on the fruits of the Spirit, may have missed something. Was one of them a lemon? This is what I recall, anyway:

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

There's history that you're unaware of. She deserves all the insults anyone can dream up and then some. I'm not kidding. She is not anything other than your enemy if you're wise, you'll treat her as though she's a threat to your very soul, because she is exactly that.

 

[Clete]

I dont understand why White has to own God decrees all rape. Or why Enyart has to limit Gods knowledge and say God never knew we would exist or to say Christ could have disobeyed the Father. I think these are false premises to say it has to be one way or the other. Jesus is as much God as the Father or Holy Spirit. And they are one Jesus couldnt be against himself. And White need not put God in the drivers seat of all tragedy as if everything we do was chosen by God. Just cause God knows what we will do doesnt make it his fault. God didnt want to make robots or angels with no freewill that couldnt bring him pleasure or glory. It makes him a monster if that is true. Which I cant believe God is behind all evil by divine decree. But I will never blasphem and say God is not all knowing or all powerful. But he made us in His image and lets us choose life or death, wrong or right. Of course he could stop all evil but then we could never really love, or live. Can the truth be both views. It would harmonize all these scriptures that seem to be disagreeing.


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The problem is that the notion that God knows everything in advance is not biblical, which is where Enyart and other Open Theists start. The quote I have in my signature line is appropriate here...

"The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders​

The Open View, in effect, finishes what the Reformation started. The primary premise of the Reformation was to rid the church of doctrines that were of Rome rather than of scripture. It was all the Catholic traditions and various doctrines that Rome had added to the Christian faith that the Reformation was all about getting rid of. The Open View attempts to do the same except that it isn't Rome that the problem, its Greece. Doctrines like Omniscience just are not in the bible in the Classical sense of the term. Biblically, God knows everything that it knowable that He wants to know. The idea that God is aware of every detail of every event of history before time began is just simply not taught in the bible, it was taught by the pagan Greek philosophers Aristotle and Plato. The reason you believe it is because Augustine, who practically worshiped Aristotle and Plato, introduced it into Christian doctrine in the 5th century. And that's the only reason you believe it.

So, it isn't that Open Theists begin with a rejection of Omniscience because of some false premise as you suggest, its that we reject EVERYTHING that isn't rationally biblical. It is the most consistent application of Luther's plea at Worms..

"Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Swifty357]

I went to a huge books a million and bought three books by John Piper. Desiring God, Pleasures of God, and Future Grace. Which if i was understanding the blurbs on the back its a trilogy on reformed Calvinist beliefs. Oddly enough a very similar tragedy to Sanders in the God who risks befell Piper but they took two different lessons away from it. Sanders opens up his book with the true story of driving up on an accident and being told his brother was laying dead underneath the wreckage. He gets mad at God, starts drifting away from Christianity. When a friend explains God had nothing to do with it and turns Sanders on to the open theist viewpoint and some philosophical apologist who argues against God being behind every tragedy and superficial things like what you want to eat for dinner at the dinner. Piper on the otherhand describes his mom tragically being killed by an out of control Bus while he was away at college. But instead of being mad at God he delights in Gods decree and absolutely think was soverign over the death of his mom, and praises him for crushing his son on the cross. This was me quickly skimming all thee books on the drive home. My wife was driving.n I think pleasures of God is going to answer my questions on how Calvinist understand God's attributes and what tulips about. Book one Desiring God is about God being most pleased by whatever brings him glory, which makes Piper emotionally happy if im understanding him right. He calls this philosophy Christian hedonism. Which ive never heard hedonism used in a positive context before. Debauchery and pagan eat drink and be merry because tommorow we die way of living was what came to my mind. Piper seems really into people ive never heard of puritans from long ago. John Edwards and Burroughs are two im unfamiliar with. I know who CS Lewis is though he quoted him some too. Not sure what to think about it yet. Future Grace I haven't cracked open yet. I also bought a hardcover of Calvins Institutes of the Christian religion. It looks terribly boring to be honest. And I also picked. A book by NT Wright about the problem of evil. My first NT Wright book but ive heard his name a lot the last couple years. Bought enough books to make my wife mad at me. And she doesnt even know I ordered an intro to open theism off Amazon on the ride home by Greg Boyd because the store didnt have it. I hardly ever buy myself anything im constantly getting her bath and body works and those phone cases she collects. Otterbox or whatever they are called. Getting her nails and hair done. Buying her new clothes all the time while I look like a refugee from some war torn 3rd world nation. Man she makes me mad sometimes. Maybe i did overdue it a little but its so rare i buy anything for myself.

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